From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Feb 1 04:18:24 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:18:24 -0500 Subject: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution Message-ID: <199801311818.AA26294@world.std.com> ; from Allison J Parent on Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 01:18:24PM -0500 References: <199801311818.AA26294@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19980201131558.50751@lemis.com> On Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 01:18:24PM -0500, Allison J Parent wrote: >> From: "Steven M. Schultz" > >> The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to >> something a bit better? I would think so but don't know for sure) >> had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get >> the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips >> machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time. > > I've run z80s/4mhz at 19.2k with no errors it's was the structure of the > driver and a total level of hardware buffering of one byte. Sure. UNIX drivers have never been particularly optimized for high async interrupt performance. >> Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand >> interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600 >> baud serial line I'd think. > > they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes The 16540 has only one byte buffer. > and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes. The 16550 has 4 bytes, and the 16650 has (I think) 16 bytes. > That's a whole lot of time before you must service it and then there > is the matter of a few dozen mips of cpu behind it. That's more to the point. Don't forget that a high-end Pentium is probably 1000 times the speed of an 11/20. I regularly get 50-60k interrupts per second when downloading fonts to my PostScript printer, and I think the printer is the limiting factor there. > >> Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'. An 11/44 is about .6 mips >> (an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a >> 286. > > No comparison. My 11/23 runs just fine with the TU58 running at 38.4k. > the difference is the 11/23 is not using a console processor inbetween. > In that case the DLV11j is the higest priority in the bus. > > My 11/73 also uses the TU58 at 38.4 but the disks (RX02, RQDX3, RL02) > are all lower priority. Again there is no problem unless the system is > real busy and then the tu58 will do rereads for blocks that were not > ack'd. Have you modified the kernel? Normally disks will preempt ttys. > Its byte timing. the bits are handled at the uart. But your right > my systems are lightly loaded and generally run RT11FB or XM. Ah. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA25590 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 15:21:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Feb 1 14:20:58 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:20:58 -0500 Subject: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution Message-ID: <199802010420.AA07172@world.std.com> <> they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes < and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes. < All, The virtual tape drive seems to be working fine. I've added RL support, so you should be now able to install over a serial line to: RP04, RP05 and RP06 disks. RP03 disks. RK05 disks. RL01 and RL02 disks. Other disk support would require hacking the V7 kernel sources. I've back-ported uncompress to V7, and written a user-mode program to read from the tape, so I'm hoping that once the basic root filesystem is installed, you will be able to do: $ vtget /dev/tty1 5 | uncompress | tar vxf - and pull over compressed tar images. That should speed things up. I will consolidate the documentation, give it a damn good testing with Ersatz 2.0 tomorrow, and then put the whole thing up for ftp at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PDP-11/Vtserver I haven't heard from many of those who were `dying' for something like this last year. Hopefully someone will find it useful :-) Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28785 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:07 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Feb 2 13:44:29 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:29 +1100 (EST) Subject: First Release of Virt Tape Software Message-ID: <199802020344.OAA23220@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, Ok, the alpha-cut of the virtual tape drive for installing 7th Edition UNIX onto PDP-11s is available at ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver It works for RK05s, but I'm getting a `panic: iinit' error for RL02s. This indicates a bad kernel build for the RL02s, something I have to work on. I cannot test the software for RP03/04/05/06 disks, but this should be vanilla V7 and should work with no problems. A couple of people emailed me and said that they would rather get 2.11BSD (again on a PDP-11 with no tape drive). Steven, would you be prepared to add support for the virtual tape drive into 2.11BSD? Only the boot/install code would need to change. Would anyone with RL02s & experience with V7 kernels help me fix the RL02 problems?!! Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA01650 for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:03:54 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Feb 3 08:04:20 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:04:20 +1100 (EST) Subject: Swedish PUPS Message-ID: <199802022204.JAA24121@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Did I send this PDP message on to the list? Warren ----- Forwarded message from beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se ----- From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:38:52 +0100 Message-Id: <199801271338.OAA07788 at sylvester.> To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: PUPS Membership Hi PDP lovers! My name is Lars Persson and I live in the south of Sweden. I am collecting various flavors of PDP11 systems. Mainly Q-bus based ones. Currently I have one system up running UNIX, namely an 11/23 with IDRIS. IDRIS is roughly V6-ish, btw. I also have in my collection a PDP11/73 with BSD 2.11 but this system is currently suffereing from a defective boot sector on its RD54 and my TK25 has burned to cinders.. Can anybody help? Other more or less workable systems are: 11/34, 11/03, 11/23s-/23PLUS, 11/53, PRO-350, VT103 (the VT100 with a built in Qbus for LSI PDPs) and also several VAXen (uVAX II, 11/730 and various VAX-stations). In my collection I also have much litterature, manuals and engineering drawings of PDP11s, spares, RL02 diskpacks, RK05 diskpacks, RX01/02 floppies and much more. Happy to help anybody who needs it. I have been fiddling with PDP11 computers for a considerable number of years and I have also worked with UNIX and networking for a long long time. =) Regards! /Lars Persson, HARLOSA Computer Center ----- End of forwarded message from beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se ----- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA02592 for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:49:37 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Feb 3 14:50:04 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:50:04 +1100 (EST) Subject: Virtual Tape Server - RL02s work Message-ID: <199802030450.PAA00421@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> For those who were after RL02 support in the PDP-11 virtual tape server, it now works. Thanks also to John Holden for space-optimising the 1st stage boot code -- much less to hand-toggle in now. The next version is at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA10966 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:07:04 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From bob at wbs.net Wed Feb 18 17:06:47 1998 From: bob at wbs.net (Bob Lash) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:06:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: V7 on a PDP-11/23+ Message-ID: I wanted to express my gratitude to PUPS, and especially PUPS member Bob Armstrong, who transferred a copy of Seventh Edition UNIX onto an RL02 pack which worked immediately on my PDP-11/23+ ! :) Below is a copy of booting instructions that Bob provided for the 11/23+. These worked exactly as billed. If anyone needs some spare RL02 incandescent bulbs, I have a few on hand. Also, they are still availabe from Digikey at http://www.digikey.com. The part is a "CM 73" bulb, which is a T1 3/4 14V wedge base type. Best wishes, Bob Lash bob at wbs.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 21:06:31 PST From: Bob Armstrong To: bob at wbs.net Subject: RE: V7 on a PDP-11/23+ Here are the instructions for booting System 7, just in case I forget to tell you tomorrow: 1) Be sure your terminal is set to 7 bits, even parity. 2) Mount the pack, spin it up and hardware boot. The unix boot program will print an "@" almost immediately. [This is really annoying, because the 11/23 ODT also prompts with "@", so unless you expect this you'll think that the machine has crashed!] 3) Type "unix" and RETURN. This is the kernel name, and when you are able to build your own kernels you can type a different name. If you make any typos you'll have to reboot. The boot pretends that you can try again if you make a mistake, but don't believe it! 3) Unix will say "mem = ..." and then "SINGLE USER LOGIN:". Enter ^Z (not ^D!) to start time sharing. 4) It will prompt for the date and time. Note that the date doesn't give you the opportunity to enter a year - the system will think it's 1997 until you figure out how to change this (you didn't know that there'd be homework, did you :-) 5) You'll get a "login:" prompt. The password to root is "pdp". 6) You're on your own. Have fun! Two more tips: if you aren't sure your hardware works, I recommend you try your first boot with the pack write locked. Unix will panic right after it says "mem=..." with a write locked swap, but at least this way you won't risk corrupting your pack until you're reasonably sure the hardware works. Don't ever shut down the system without doing a couple of syncs first. This is unix, after all, and you'll eventually trash your file system if you shut down without syncing. Bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA13383 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:58:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Feb 19 08:59:04 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:59:04 +1100 (EST) Subject: V7 on a PDP-11/23+ In-Reply-To: from Bob Lash at "Feb 17, 98 11:06:47 pm" Message-ID: <199802182259.JAA09626@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Bob Lash: > I wanted to express my gratitude to PUPS, and especially PUPS member Bob > Armstrong, who transferred a copy of Seventh Edition UNIX onto an RL02 > pack which worked immediately on my PDP-11/23+ ! :) > > Below is a copy of booting instructions that Bob provided for the 11/23+. > These worked exactly as billed. > > If anyone needs some spare RL02 incandescent bulbs, I have a few on hand. > Also, they are still availabe from Digikey at http://www.digikey.com. The > part is a "CM 73" bulb, which is a T1 3/4 14V wedge base type. > > Bob Lash > bob at wbs.net Glad to hear that PUPS is of some help. There isn't really any official membership, though. If anybody joins the mailing list or signs the `I want a src license' petition, then I count 'em as members :-) On the source license front, Dion at SCO is still trying to push the legal section into producing something. I mailed him last week but haven't heard anything back. I've asked to establish some form of dialogue with the nay-sayers, to try & address their concerns about a personal src license. All this for a 20-year old piece of software! This list tends to be quiet. What did you all get up to over Christmas, and how are your PDP-11s going?! Did anybody ever get that tape from George Colouris in England and read its contents? Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14215 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 14:16:37 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From rmsmith at csc.com Thu Feb 19 13:14:50 1998 From: rmsmith at csc.com (Robert Smith) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:14:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: V7 on a PDP-11/23+ In-Reply-To: <199802182259.JAA09626@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Feb 19, 98 09:59:04 am Message-ID: Thanks for tweaking the list! Holidays were great in the DC area (USA). Weather was NICE. Only problem is the weather has been so nice I have been working on my cars instead of my 11s. The 63 ford blew the heater coil/heat exchanger. mumble grumble. The 67 buick is doing great - til yesterday on the way home from a little run. Brakes are acting up. Rain prevents getting at that in the driveway. With the rain, I have been playing with NetBSD on the vax!! waiting for Linux!! thanks! bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA14931 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:14 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From belfry at eudoramail.com Thu Feb 19 18:33:02 1998 From: belfry at eudoramail.com (Michael Kraus) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:02 -0700 Subject: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11) Message-ID: G'day All... In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine. I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it, and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter). Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney). I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet. Anyone who can help, please let me know. Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA16207 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 04:46:34 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From djenner at halcyon.com Fri Feb 20 03:46:10 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:46:10 -0800 Subject: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11) References: Message-ID: <34EC6FE2.56FC890@halcyon.com> Michael, You can get Venix (~V7/System III) for the Pro on the Internet at ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/venix/ The README file there has instructions on how to get it all booted. You need a PC that can write 1.2MB, 5.25in floppies. There isn't any networking support. Hardware wise, you need the Pro equivalent of the PDP-11 DEQNA and a transceiver. ftp.update.uu.se also has all the DEC P/OS software, which can do DECNET. Dave Michael Kraus wrote: > > G'day All... > > In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine. > > I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local > network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it, > and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter). > > Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in > which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the > terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney). > > I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet. > > Anyone who can help, please let me know. > > Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 330 bytes Desc: Card for David C. Jenner URL: From belfry at eudoramail.com Thu Feb 19 18:33:02 1998 From: belfry at eudoramail.com (Michael Kraus) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:02 -0700 Subject: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11) Message-ID: G'day All... In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine. I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it, and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter). Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney). I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet. Anyone who can help, please let me know. Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA25372 for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:28:27 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se Sun Feb 22 21:29:18 1998 From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:29:18 +0100 (MET) Subject: Putting that UNIX on hardware In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi gang! Would it be possible to generate RL02's from an ULTRIX uVAX with dd? Like, we have bootable systems for the emulator on file. Now suppose I recompile one of my ULTRIXen to recognize RL02 and then transfer that emulator UNIX filesystem file to it. Using dd I should be able to put the system on an RL02. Would that RL02 be bootable in a PDP11 system or do I need to put on some sort of boot information on a secret sector of the disk to make it bootable? IF it is bootable, is it legal to do it? If it is legal, is it legal to distribute that RL02 to a third party? IF it is possible AND legal I might be able to manufacture some RL02 UNIXen for you out there who got a PDP11 system but lack something to run on it. Provided you pay the expense for shipping, of course. =) I got a glassfibre box that can take two RL02 packs and this could perhaps be used to ship things in... Comments anyone? /Lars Persson, HARLOSA PD Computer Center Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA26798 for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:43:13 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Feb 23 07:44:14 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:44:14 +1100 (EST) Subject: Putting that UNIX on hardware In-Reply-To: from Beastly Wolf at "Feb 22, 98 12:29:18 pm" Message-ID: <199802222144.IAA15297@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Beastly Wolf: > Hi gang! > > Would it be possible to generate RL02's from an ULTRIX uVAX with dd? > Like, we have bootable systems for the emulator on file. > Now suppose I recompile one of my ULTRIXen to recognize RL02 and > then transfer that emulator UNIX filesystem file to it. > Using dd I should be able to put the system on an RL02. > Would that RL02 be bootable in a PDP11 system or do I need to > put on some sort of boot information on a secret sector of the disk > to make it bootable? I'm not a hardware guy, but I can't see any difficulties in doing this. The RL02 disk images have everything (incl. boot blocks) to get UNIX going. > IF it is bootable, is it legal to do it? > If it is legal, is it legal to distribute that RL02 to a third party? ONLY if the disk contains binaries ONLY. See the disk images that Bob Supnik distributes with his emulator, and the SCO copyright notice at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/Licenses/v7_bin_license.txt > IF it is possible AND legal I might be able to manufacture some RL02 UNIXen > for you out there who got a PDP11 system but lack something to run on it. > Provided you pay the expense for shipping, of course. =) Hopefully lots of people will take you up on this, Lars!! Thanks, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA01182 for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:35:42 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Feb 24 10:36:58 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:36:58 +1100 (EST) Subject: SCO PDP-11 License: closer Message-ID: <199802240036.LAA17631@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, I've just received the next draft of the proposed PDP-11 UNIX Source License from SCO. To me it looks good, and I'd be happy to sign it. I have passed a copy over to Steven Schultz: his 2.11BSD work is a derivative which could be affected by the license clauses. I'll try to get permission to release the draft to this mailing list from SCO. I've asked them how long it will take before licenses go on sale, once we've agreed with the draft license terms. More news as soon as I have it.... Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA02247 for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:04:41 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se Tue Feb 24 18:05:36 1998 From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:05:36 +0100 (MET) Subject: Project generate RL02. Message-ID: Hi again gang! It looks as if we can turn the binaries in PUPS's archive into hardware with dd, as my theory went. So I went forth and started to tinker a bit with my trusty old ULTRIX rig. I run into some problems though and before starting to fiddle with them myself, I thought I should ask out there if this is a known caveat. Here goes: My uVAX has an RQDX-3 controller, a controller for EAGLE disks, TQK50, DQNA and some sort of line card (A DHV-11 I think). I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and snipped some rows from the GENERIC file to make a good system. What struck me as if upon my head was that the CSR for the DQNA and the RL02 controller was the same. Vector is set by some intricate mechanism automagically though. Oh well, I maked the kernel and it booted fine. If found the hl device BUT! It also said (twice!) that the hl device did not interrupt. I do not have a drive connected though. I tried both with and without external terminator on the drive connector. No go. Same message. I am reluctant to put cards on non standard CSRs since the GENERIC kernel will not operate as intended and boy are those GENERIC kernels good to have! So here is the problem: What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get the darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the line? Or could the controller be bad? (Not to worry! I got more controllers laying about! =) ). If nobody got answers to this my next experiment will be to take out the DQNA and see if that helps. I am reluctant to fiddle to much with the cards since the machine is installed in a non standard 19" CRAMMED FULL kinda rack and is hard to service. /Lars Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA03167 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 01:47:58 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Feb 25 00:47:39 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:47:39 -0500 Subject: Project generate RL02. Message-ID: <199802241447.AA20016@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Feb 24, 98 09:47:39 am Message-ID: <9802241629.AA03005@alph02.triumf.ca> > > I take it that is the rlv12 controller as the rlv11 twoboard set is not > usable. The rlv11 (m8014/8014) must be plugged into a h9273 backplane > only! Actually, if you use an expansion BA23 it is possible to hook a RLV11 set to a uVax. Woe to the person that tries this, though, as there are bad things in store when the system begins doing any Q-bus transactions past the lower 248 Kbytes! The 18-bit-ness of the RLV11 is a very nasty form of 18-bit-ness, and not easily overcome like, say, the RXV21. > > likely yes, the drive must be connected. Certainly yes, if the Ultrix autoconfigure logic is anything like 2.11 BSD's was before I got fed up with it insisting that I have my RL units #0 when booting. To quote from 2.11BSD Patch #380: Subject: RL driver update, setvbuf(3) arrives in 2BSD, rdist fix (#380) Description: 1) 'autoconfig' only recognizes the RL controller if drive 0 is connected to the system at boot time. Repeat-by: 1) Boot a system with multiple RL drives, but with drive 0 not present. 'autoconfig' will not see an interrupt from the RL subsystem during its probe of drive 0, and as a result the rl driver will not be attached. Fix: 1) Modify /sys/autoconfig/rlauto.c so it tests only for the presence of the RL controller CSR, and doesn't wait for an interrupt. This is the same thing which is done in the TS11 probe routine because TS controllers can not be made to interrupt reliably if a tape is not at the load point and the drive is not online. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA04419 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:16:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Feb 25 08:17:42 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:17:42 +1100 (EST) Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources Message-ID: <199802242217.JAA22990@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 20325 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Feb 25 13:05:43 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:05:43 +1100 (EST) Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources In-Reply-To: <199802250258.SAA22923@rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> from Chris Drake at "Feb 24, 98 06:57:53 pm" Message-ID: <199802250305.OAA23864@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Chris Drake: > Not being a lawyer, it looks confusing but reasonable... > A couple of questions, though: > > - it looks to me like the $100 fee is a one-shot that covers more > than one CPU, as long as you specify them all at the outset. Or > is this supposed to be a per-CPU fee? > > - this also appears to be a fee for any or all of the versions of > the OS specified. Or is this supposed to be a per-version fee? > > - Chris Drake I'm told by Dion that you nominate the CPUs on which the software will be run. I have no idea how to nominate an emunated CPU. The one-off fee covers ALL nominated versions AND all successor versions (e.g the right to use PWB, AUSAM, 2BSD, System III etc.) The licensee also specifies which are the authorised countries. I hope/assume that I can specify my list of authorised countries as: All countries except Afghanistan, the People's Republic of China or any Group Q, S, W, Y or Z country specified in Supplement No. 1 to Section 370 of the Export Administration Regulations issued by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Hope this helps, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05244 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:07:28 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Feb 25 13:08:53 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:08:53 +1100 (EST) Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources In-Reply-To: <199802250259.AA24622@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Feb 24, 98 09:59:00 pm" Message-ID: <199802250308.OAA23877@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Allison J Parent: > Overall not bad. The price of $100US is not unresonable assuming the > media cost is not out of line. Still VMS can be had for FREE and media > (limited to CDrom only) is $30US. If the all up price were $100 > including machine readable media that would be something more > agreeable. > > What is open is what version would they provide and at what cost for > that vversion on media? I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can distribute the image with every license. If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provided we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwise. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05398 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:34:00 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Feb 25 13:35:25 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:35:25 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 System III - copies? Message-ID: <199802250335.OAA23908@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Looking at that license from SCO, we should be able to legally use System III. Does anybody have a copy I can add to the archive? Thanks, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05409 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:34:25 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Wed Feb 25 13:34:11 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:11 +1030 Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources In-Reply-To: <199802250308.OAA23877@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 02:08:53PM +1100 References: <199802250259.AA24622@world.std.com> <199802250308.OAA23877@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980225140411.14345@freebie.lemis.com> On Wed, 25 February 1998 at 14:08:53 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Allison J Parent: >> Overall not bad. The price of $100US is not unresonable assuming the >> media cost is not out of line. Still VMS can be had for FREE and media >> (limited to CDrom only) is $30US. If the all up price were $100 >> including machine readable media that would be something more >> agreeable. >> >> What is open is what version would they provide and at what cost for >> that vversion on media? > > I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion > is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest > to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can > distribute the image with every license. How many CDs are we looking at? Maybe I can arrange something. > If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provided > we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are > going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwise. Maybe you should point that out and change that to "notification". Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05534 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:57:32 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Feb 25 13:58:56 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:58:56 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 Applications Message-ID: <199802250358.OAA24047@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Dear All, I'm just looking at my proposed CD image for PDP-11 systems, and there's an empty directory called Applications, which can hold applications written specifically for PDP-11 UNIX systems. I haven't got anything to put in there! No, I do have a very old Usenix tape from Jay Jaeger, dated Sept 1977. Does anybody have anything that might go in here for v6, v7, 2BSD, PWB. Alternatively, does anybody know where full archives of comp.sources.unix are on the 'net?? If there's space, I'd like to have some things like this on the CD. Ta, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA05636 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:19:16 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Wed Feb 25 14:07:04 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:37:04 +1030 Subject: Changing passwords with 2.11BSD Message-ID: <19980225143704.65511@freebie.lemis.com> I've just installed a 2.11BSD, and I'm having some funny problems. Here's one; I'll make a separate message of the other. I've added a new user with vipw. When I try to change the password, I get this: login: root Password: Last login: Sat Aug 9 02:25:12 on console 2.11 BSD UNIX #7: Fri Aug 8 14:14:34 MET DST [1] root--> passwd grog Changing password for grog. New password: Retype new password: passwd: mkpasswd failed; password unchanged. [2] root--> If I run mkpasswd against /etc/master.passwd, it works fine. But that way I can't change my password. Any ideas? Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA06632 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:06:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Feb 25 22:05:50 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:05:50 -0500 Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources Message-ID: <199802251205.AA07228@world.std.com> ----- Forwarded message from Alan Bain ----- >From afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk Thu Feb 26 01:08:57 1998 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:07:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Alan Bain X-Sender: afrb2 at red.csi.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: Alan Bain To: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: System III Message-ID: I remember seeing this on the mailing list a while ago and wondered what became of the Sys III (no that it's of any use to me with an 11/34!). Hope you track down a copy.... I'm still looking for the pre AT&T V5 versions myself ... someone seems to have had a very early version here in Cambridge UK but I can find out what became of it. There may have even been a PDP-7 running unix at one point here. The CL are hopelessly disorganised about such stuff -- it goes in the `old junk' category and unfortunately they love to wipe tapes just in case they contain proprietary software. However I now have access to a half inch drive on a sun (certainly 1600 & 6250 BPI, possibly more useful lower BPI also). If anyone in the UK has such tapes I'm most willing to try and read them. Alan Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA08405 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:10:46 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Feb 26 08:12:16 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:12:16 +1100 (EST) Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources In-Reply-To: <34F446F9.E9AD729F@pa.dec.com> from Paul McJones at "Feb 25, 98 08:29:45 am" Message-ID: <199802252212.JAA25371@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Paul McJones: > Given that "Lions' Commentary on Unix : With Source Code" has been > published as a book under normal copyright, all the focus on designated > cpus and audits and such in this draft license seems very heavyweight to > me. Does SCO really believe someone is going to start with the 7th > edition code and evolve it into a commercial offering competitive with > SCO's latest? No, what the legal guys have done is take the original v7 license and alter it enough to keep us happy. This is why there are such hangovers as designated CPUs. They probably did this to: + minimise the work they had to do, and + prevent a product being licensed under widely different systems If they created a completely new license, there may be a legal slant: e.g hey I own an original Western Electric v7 license, and now SCO's selling licenses which allow export of code to China (for example). That's unfair, because my license prevents that. Sue, sue!! [Maybe I'm just being paranoid here]. Anyway, the CPU restriction is BOGUS. SCO already have a binary license for v5, v6 and v7 which allows you to run these systems on an UNLIMITED number of CPUs. I can't see how they are going to enforce the CPU restriction in the new license. I think Dion suggested that auditing was probably not going to happen. Mind you, don't hold him to that! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA08480 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:35:40 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Feb 26 08:37:10 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:37:10 +1100 (EST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely Message-ID: <199802252237.JAA25560@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Dion in SCO says: > What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd > be prepared to do this? > Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and > free stuff programs to do this. I was hoping you enthusiasts already > have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed. > > E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a > filled out license form. Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS > society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out > how to service the new guy. Would that work? So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-) Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA08656 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:24:44 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Thu Feb 26 09:24:34 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:54:34 +1030 Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <199802252237.JAA25560@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 09:37:10AM +1100 References: <199802252237.JAA25560@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980226095434.51853@freebie.lemis.com> On Thu, 26 February 1998 at 9:37:10 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > Dion in SCO says: > >> What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd >> be prepared to do this? > >> Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and >> free stuff programs to do this. I was hoping you enthusiasts already >> have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed. >> >> E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a >> filled out license form. Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS >> society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out >> how to service the new guy. Would that work? > > So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO > license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-) Don't say I didn't tell you. I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA08684 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:33:55 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Feb 26 09:35:25 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:35:25 +1100 (EST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <19980226095434.51853@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Feb 26, 98 09:54:34 am" Message-ID: <199802252335.KAA25775@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> > Don't say I didn't tell you. Oh, I was expecting this. > I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. > Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a > period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the > CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. > I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, > and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of > tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write > (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. I'd like to see: + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes + a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe). Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd need the volunteers to have PGP too. If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc. You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution. We're going to have to work on this in the next few months. Thanks for all your suggestions & volunteering! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA09286 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:00:35 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Thu Feb 26 10:00:14 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:30:14 +1030 Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <199802252335.KAA25775@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 10:35:25AM +1100 References: <19980226095434.51853@freebie.lemis.com> <199802252335.KAA25775@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980226103014.06033@freebie.lemis.com> On Thu, 26 February 1998 at 10:35:25 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: >> Don't say I didn't tell you. > > Oh, I was expecting this. > >> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. >> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a >> period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the >> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. >> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, >> and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of >> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write >> (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. > > I'd like to see: > >> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs >> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes I can volunteer for this. The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500 (8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel 1600 bpi. >> a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels > > in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe). Europe and UK separately, eh? > Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm > hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone. That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand. One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses RockRidge format (UNIX long file names). It would be a real pain to be limited to DOS-style naming. > As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably > via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd > need the volunteers to have PGP too. Not a problem. > If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc. > You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution. Seems reasonable. Greg -- Greg Lehey LEMIS grog at lemis.com PO Box 460 Tel: +61-8-8388-8286 Echunga SA 5153 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Australia -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.3ia mQCNAzTb3SMAAAEEAMS8rCMuqbX0llo8lPuE+m1/bHTNN4q3o2OFi1t9WXlYd063 XslucmHTYRk+f0OznRpcAuyr1pvYqfnl0Gi5uys/CopKiwaouXZYjSW6PzVnTQza QJKuQwlpSUJhrcj9qXn5CW6FCLRXRcZdSezTZmDPV2jKXadD30ciy96pXaeVAAUR tA5ncm9nQGxlbWlzLmNvbYkAlQMFEDTb3SRHIsveqV2nlQEBnbQD+wf6JL7GgPbM Ql+TK9ZpYUBo+brvkg4GdgWVHbiHEue8dxm0vgEB+K4GpCJEYAx+x6L7ZM4iF4Nv axzS1UrVru9IYforM51jODk4mxZAySTspIbEzmBTY5/7N2i3b4kkiqeCdVKTy2c2 fwkb1+F6EZXY8xaxIFtu3NGRxR0Pd2Am =M7yb -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 290 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rmsmith at csc.com Thu Feb 26 10:36:25 1998 From: rmsmith at csc.com (Robert Smith) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:36:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources In-Reply-To: <199802252212.JAA25371@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Feb 26, 98 09:12:16 am Message-ID: Warren, and the rest of us! Thanks! Everyone who has commented has covered all the same ground that I would with the license discussion! I will take what I can get to be legal! Thanks for all the work on this!! bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA12525 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:57:56 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk Fri Feb 27 01:57:39 1998 From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:57:39 GMT Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources In-Reply-To: <199802242217.JAA22990@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> References: <199802242217.JAA22990@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <199802261557.PAA13264@dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about this, but if I read this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of the 4BSD releases as well. Of course all the recent ones are free already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of stuff from System V?). I'd be quite interested in 4.2 and 4.3 as I have a machine that runs 4.2 (not a vax...). I suspect that the 4BSD situation must be fairly well understood by someone, since there were all these legal arguments a few years ago when the various PC BSDs started appearing in a big way. Does anyone know what the real story is? --tim -- Tim Bradshaw, System Manager, Artificial Intelligence Applications Institute, University of Edinburgh Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA13228 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:21:55 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Fri Feb 27 06:23:30 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:23:30 +1100 (EST) Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources In-Reply-To: <199802261557.PAA13264@dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "Feb 26, 98 03:57:39 pm" Message-ID: <199802262023.HAA26835@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Tim Bradshaw: > I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about this, but if I read > this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of > the 4BSD releases as well. Of course all the recent ones are free > already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're > derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of > stuff from System V?). No, the successor systems are specified as 16-bit, and that excludes the 4BSD systems as they ran on the Vax. Besides, UCB still owns these systems. Keith Bostic has mentioned that a back-burner project is to get all the 4BSD releases onto CD-ROMs, and make them available to people with licenses for 32V. He knows about the new SCO licenses. Perhaps we can start encouraging him once we get out licenses?! P.S Why do you think I fought to get 32V covered by the SCO license? I wanted to be able to buy these 4BSD CD-ROMs! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA17819 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 06:24:28 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From sms at moe.2bsd.com Sat Feb 28 05:07:40 1998 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:07:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely Message-ID: <199802271907.LAA25828@moe.2bsd.com> Howdy - > From: Greg Lehey > I can volunteer for this. The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500 > (8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel 1600 bpi. Are there any UNIBUS/Qbus controllers that can deal with QIC-150? I tried putting a Wangtek 5150ES on a Emulex UC08 and it didn't work at all. The only 'QIC' format I've seen work (and which preserves record boundaries) is the TK25 (uses the DC600A tapes). I can make TK25 tapes. I can also make 6250bpi 9-track until the tapedrive wears out (at which point I'm unlikely to sink the rather high $$$ to repair/replace it - 4mm drives are a lot cheaper ;-)). > > Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm > > hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. > > Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's > a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone. You've me to thank for that ;-) > That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM > wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand. I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and applied. > One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses > RockRidge format (UNIX long file names). It would be a real pain to Of course! There will be .MAP files to assist those systems that need help with long filenames or deep directories. Steven Schultz Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA18053 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 07:38:54 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 28 06:37:13 1998 From: robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:37:13 +0000 Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <199802252335.KAA25775@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: In message <199802252335.KAA25775 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey writes >> Don't say I didn't tell you. > >Oh, I was expecting this. > >> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. >> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a >> period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the >> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. >> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, >> and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of >> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write >> (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. > >I'd like to see: > > + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs > + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes > + a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels > Can do TK50, Exabyte, 0.25 SCSI cassette and will build kernels of anything that I can safely get up on my 11/73. This will be for UK distrib although I'll send anywhere if the postage is reimbursed. Robin PS, I may be able to do TS05 in the future. Robin Birch robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA20210 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:35:46 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Sat Feb 28 11:35:28 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:05:28 +1030 Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <199802271907.LAA25828@moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 11:07:40AM -0800 References: <199802271907.LAA25828@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <19980228120528.31861@freebie.lemis.com> On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 11:07:40 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Howdy - > >> From: Greg Lehey >>> Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm >>> hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. >> >> Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's >> a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone. > > You've me to thank for that ;-) Indeed. Thanks. >> That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM >> wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand. > > I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. > The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either > FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD > then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and > applied. Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff to be up to date? Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20480 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:17:47 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Feb 28 14:17:37 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:17:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <19980228120528.31861@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Feb 28, 98 12:05:28 pm Message-ID: <9802280417.AA20644@alph02.triumf.ca> > > I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. > > The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either > > FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD > > then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and > > applied. > > Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred > CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff > to be up to date? You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one. What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD? Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and it's a hell of a lot more convenient for installs on Unibus and Q-bus -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution. It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20523 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:39:41 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Sat Feb 28 14:39:26 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:09:26 +1030 Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <9802280417.AA20644@alph02.triumf.ca>; from Tim Shoppa on Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 08:17:37PM -0800 References: <19980228120528.31861@freebie.lemis.com> <9802280417.AA20644@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <19980228150926.00518@freebie.lemis.com> On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 20:17:37 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote: >>> I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. >>> The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either >>> FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD >>> then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and >>> applied. >> >> Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred >> CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff >> to be up to date? > > You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that > he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one. > > What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing > updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD? Well, no, I had made a suggestion that, with the quantities involved, it might be easier to burn WORMs. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20542 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:44:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From sms at moe.2bsd.com Sat Feb 28 14:43:41 1998 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:43:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely Message-ID: <199802280443.UAA00780@moe.2bsd.com> Tim - > What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing > updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD? The pace is slowing down due to lack of copious free time for major projects but yeah, i kinda figure every couple months I'll find something that needs fixing/tweeking/etc ;) > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive for my 11 - they're nice. I don't like the DB25 style of cable that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox. > -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution. Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to the 11/73. Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not with the Emulex UC08. For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000 appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives). The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs at drives that don't do variable record mode. Do the CMD adaptors do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices? > It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I > have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable > CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the ISO9660 filesystem. Now a MO drive that used 512 byte sector'd media should work just fine - but that style of drive is fading in popularity. > boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? It'll panic. For a couple reasons: pipes are implemented via the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes needs a rw filesystem. And a swap area is needed. If there's memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of swap space. It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk but it's not clear to me it'd be worth the trouble. Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA20703 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:07:33 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Feb 28 16:07:21 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:07:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm Message-ID: <9802280607.AA30497@alph02.triumf.ca> > > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP > > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all > > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and > > How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? On my Andromeda SCDC, the effective transfer rate to the Q-bus is just under a megabyte per second. In other words: damn fast. (Fast 7200 RPM SCSI-II hard drives will get 1.5-2 Mbyte second). Booting from ZIP is far, far faster than booting from a RD54. I posted some benchmarks to vmsnet.pdp-11 two months or so ago. > I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive > for my 11 - they're nice. I don't like the DB25 style of cable > that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the > rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox. That aren't all that rare. You just have to go someplace other than Fry's, that's all :-). > > -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution. > > Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up > with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to > the 11/73. Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not > with the Emulex UC08. For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000 > appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect > the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives). > The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs > at drives that don't do variable record mode. Do the CMD adaptors > do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices? The problem is that most QIC devices are commonly operated in fixed-size- block mode, something that TMSCP doesn't really grok well unless its hidden under a layer that hides this and allows for variable-sized "virtual" blocks. (Your TK25 takes care of all of this for you automagically.) > > have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable > > CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will > > Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the > ISO9660 filesystem. That's OK. The MSCP controllers make each 2048 byte sector look like 4 512-byte blocks. And you don't need to lay down a ISO9660 filesystem; if you throw away the idiotic software that comes with the PC-clone CD-ROM writers, you can put any filesystem you like down. I've built bootable RT-11 CD-ROM's this way. > > boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? > > It'll panic. For a couple reasons: pipes are implemented via > the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes > needs a rw filesystem. And a swap area is needed. If there's > memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but > argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of > swap space. It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk RT-11 also wants a writable swap file, and this is indeed provided by using a RAM disk (i.e. VM:). > but it's not > clear to me it'd be worth the trouble. It depends on how convenient you find installation from CD-ROM :-). I find the bootable ZIP disk very convenient for "recovery media", and they're a whole lot easier to fit in my shirt pocket than a RL02 cart! Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se Sat Feb 28 22:55:25 1998 From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 13:55:25 +0100 (MET) Subject: That RL02 blues. Message-ID: Synopsis: I am trying to install an RLV12 and an RL02 drive under ULTRIX so that I can generate RL02 disks from the emulator software in the PUPS software library. The ultimate goal is to have a machine where one can copy bootable systems to people who do not have any vintage UNIX but have the hardware. However! There sure is a great fat wall to bump into here.... First try was a uVAX-II that is a part of my collection of vintage machines. This rig runs Ultrix 4.2 (with updates). Here is the system messages when booting the GENERIC kernel: Loading (a) vmunix ... sizes: text = 719932 data = 116224 bss = 398512 starting at 0xc19 ULTRIX V4.2 (Rev. 96) System#1: Mon Feb 23 13:40:07 EST 1998 real mem = 7335936 avail mem = 4779008 using 179 buffers containing 733184 bytes of memory. MicroVAX-II with an fpu Q22 bus uda0 at uba0 uq0 at uda0 csr 172150 vec 774 ipl 17 vvv****The RL02 driver!***vvv hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt ^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^ klesiu0 at uba0 uq6 at klesiu0 and so on. The system then successfully loads uq16, dz0, ra0 and tms0. This is what I did so far: 1) I made a system configuration file containing only the devices I got plus hl0 (that is the RL02 driver). Same effect as above. 2) To rule out that this was something in hardware I built an entire new machine from scratch using spare parts. Not ONE thing was used from the original system. I also installed ULTRIX 4.0 to be sure. Guess what... When booting the GENERIC kernel, the same thing occured. During all test: The RL02-drive(s) were spun up with a scratch disk in them. On both systems they were set as drive 0 and had terminators. *despair* When trying to reach the disk by make-ing a file system on it, the system snorts at me telling me to go and fly a kite. Watch this: # newfs /dev/rrl0a rl02 newfs: /dev/rrl0a: cannot open to read partition table: No such device or address newfs: /dev/rrl0a: cannot open: No such device or address However, the device files are in place. System just can not find the board. =/ Any clue anybody? (I know that this is tedious for you all but it is for a good cause, okay? ) /Lars Persson Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA22081 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:08:57 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Feb 1 04:18:24 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:18:24 -0500 Subject: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution Message-ID: <199801311818.AA26294@world.std.com> ; from Allison J Parent on Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 01:18:24PM -0500 References: <199801311818.AA26294@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19980201131558.50751@lemis.com> On Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 01:18:24PM -0500, Allison J Parent wrote: >> From: "Steven M. Schultz" > >> The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to >> something a bit better? I would think so but don't know for sure) >> had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get >> the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips >> machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time. > > I've run z80s/4mhz at 19.2k with no errors it's was the structure of the > driver and a total level of hardware buffering of one byte. Sure. UNIX drivers have never been particularly optimized for high async interrupt performance. >> Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand >> interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600 >> baud serial line I'd think. > > they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes The 16540 has only one byte buffer. > and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes. The 16550 has 4 bytes, and the 16650 has (I think) 16 bytes. > That's a whole lot of time before you must service it and then there > is the matter of a few dozen mips of cpu behind it. That's more to the point. Don't forget that a high-end Pentium is probably 1000 times the speed of an 11/20. I regularly get 50-60k interrupts per second when downloading fonts to my PostScript printer, and I think the printer is the limiting factor there. > >> Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'. An 11/44 is about .6 mips >> (an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a >> 286. > > No comparison. My 11/23 runs just fine with the TU58 running at 38.4k. > the difference is the 11/23 is not using a console processor inbetween. > In that case the DLV11j is the higest priority in the bus. > > My 11/73 also uses the TU58 at 38.4 but the disks (RX02, RQDX3, RL02) > are all lower priority. Again there is no problem unless the system is > real busy and then the tu58 will do rereads for blocks that were not > ack'd. Have you modified the kernel? Normally disks will preempt ttys. > Its byte timing. the bits are handled at the uart. But your right > my systems are lightly loaded and generally run RT11FB or XM. Ah. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA25590 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 15:21:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Feb 1 14:20:58 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:20:58 -0500 Subject: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution Message-ID: <199802010420.AA07172@world.std.com> <> they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes < and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes. < All, The virtual tape drive seems to be working fine. I've added RL support, so you should be now able to install over a serial line to: RP04, RP05 and RP06 disks. RP03 disks. RK05 disks. RL01 and RL02 disks. Other disk support would require hacking the V7 kernel sources. I've back-ported uncompress to V7, and written a user-mode program to read from the tape, so I'm hoping that once the basic root filesystem is installed, you will be able to do: $ vtget /dev/tty1 5 | uncompress | tar vxf - and pull over compressed tar images. That should speed things up. I will consolidate the documentation, give it a damn good testing with Ersatz 2.0 tomorrow, and then put the whole thing up for ftp at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PDP-11/Vtserver I haven't heard from many of those who were `dying' for something like this last year. Hopefully someone will find it useful :-) Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28785 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:07 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Feb 2 13:44:29 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:29 +1100 (EST) Subject: First Release of Virt Tape Software Message-ID: <199802020344.OAA23220@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, Ok, the alpha-cut of the virtual tape drive for installing 7th Edition UNIX onto PDP-11s is available at ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver It works for RK05s, but I'm getting a `panic: iinit' error for RL02s. This indicates a bad kernel build for the RL02s, something I have to work on. I cannot test the software for RP03/04/05/06 disks, but this should be vanilla V7 and should work with no problems. A couple of people emailed me and said that they would rather get 2.11BSD (again on a PDP-11 with no tape drive). Steven, would you be prepared to add support for the virtual tape drive into 2.11BSD? Only the boot/install code would need to change. Would anyone with RL02s & experience with V7 kernels help me fix the RL02 problems?!! Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA01650 for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:03:54 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Feb 3 08:04:20 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:04:20 +1100 (EST) Subject: Swedish PUPS Message-ID: <199802022204.JAA24121@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Did I send this PDP message on to the list? Warren ----- Forwarded message from beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se ----- From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:38:52 +0100 Message-Id: <199801271338.OAA07788 at sylvester.> To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: PUPS Membership Hi PDP lovers! My name is Lars Persson and I live in the south of Sweden. I am collecting various flavors of PDP11 systems. Mainly Q-bus based ones. Currently I have one system up running UNIX, namely an 11/23 with IDRIS. IDRIS is roughly V6-ish, btw. I also have in my collection a PDP11/73 with BSD 2.11 but this system is currently suffereing from a defective boot sector on its RD54 and my TK25 has burned to cinders.. Can anybody help? Other more or less workable systems are: 11/34, 11/03, 11/23s-/23PLUS, 11/53, PRO-350, VT103 (the VT100 with a built in Qbus for LSI PDPs) and also several VAXen (uVAX II, 11/730 and various VAX-stations). In my collection I also have much litterature, manuals and engineering drawings of PDP11s, spares, RL02 diskpacks, RK05 diskpacks, RX01/02 floppies and much more. Happy to help anybody who needs it. I have been fiddling with PDP11 computers for a considerable number of years and I have also worked with UNIX and networking for a long long time. =) Regards! /Lars Persson, HARLOSA Computer Center ----- End of forwarded message from beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se ----- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA02592 for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:49:37 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Feb 3 14:50:04 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:50:04 +1100 (EST) Subject: Virtual Tape Server - RL02s work Message-ID: <199802030450.PAA00421@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> For those who were after RL02 support in the PDP-11 virtual tape server, it now works. Thanks also to John Holden for space-optimising the 1st stage boot code -- much less to hand-toggle in now. The next version is at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA10966 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:07:04 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From bob at wbs.net Wed Feb 18 17:06:47 1998 From: bob at wbs.net (Bob Lash) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:06:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: V7 on a PDP-11/23+ Message-ID: I wanted to express my gratitude to PUPS, and especially PUPS member Bob Armstrong, who transferred a copy of Seventh Edition UNIX onto an RL02 pack which worked immediately on my PDP-11/23+ ! :) Below is a copy of booting instructions that Bob provided for the 11/23+. These worked exactly as billed. If anyone needs some spare RL02 incandescent bulbs, I have a few on hand. Also, they are still availabe from Digikey at http://www.digikey.com. The part is a "CM 73" bulb, which is a T1 3/4 14V wedge base type. Best wishes, Bob Lash bob at wbs.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 21:06:31 PST From: Bob Armstrong To: bob at wbs.net Subject: RE: V7 on a PDP-11/23+ Here are the instructions for booting System 7, just in case I forget to tell you tomorrow: 1) Be sure your terminal is set to 7 bits, even parity. 2) Mount the pack, spin it up and hardware boot. The unix boot program will print an "@" almost immediately. [This is really annoying, because the 11/23 ODT also prompts with "@", so unless you expect this you'll think that the machine has crashed!] 3) Type "unix" and RETURN. This is the kernel name, and when you are able to build your own kernels you can type a different name. If you make any typos you'll have to reboot. The boot pretends that you can try again if you make a mistake, but don't believe it! 3) Unix will say "mem = ..." and then "SINGLE USER LOGIN:". Enter ^Z (not ^D!) to start time sharing. 4) It will prompt for the date and time. Note that the date doesn't give you the opportunity to enter a year - the system will think it's 1997 until you figure out how to change this (you didn't know that there'd be homework, did you :-) 5) You'll get a "login:" prompt. The password to root is "pdp". 6) You're on your own. Have fun! Two more tips: if you aren't sure your hardware works, I recommend you try your first boot with the pack write locked. Unix will panic right after it says "mem=..." with a write locked swap, but at least this way you won't risk corrupting your pack until you're reasonably sure the hardware works. Don't ever shut down the system without doing a couple of syncs first. This is unix, after all, and you'll eventually trash your file system if you shut down without syncing. Bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA13383 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:58:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Feb 19 08:59:04 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:59:04 +1100 (EST) Subject: V7 on a PDP-11/23+ In-Reply-To: from Bob Lash at "Feb 17, 98 11:06:47 pm" Message-ID: <199802182259.JAA09626@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Bob Lash: > I wanted to express my gratitude to PUPS, and especially PUPS member Bob > Armstrong, who transferred a copy of Seventh Edition UNIX onto an RL02 > pack which worked immediately on my PDP-11/23+ ! :) > > Below is a copy of booting instructions that Bob provided for the 11/23+. > These worked exactly as billed. > > If anyone needs some spare RL02 incandescent bulbs, I have a few on hand. > Also, they are still availabe from Digikey at http://www.digikey.com. The > part is a "CM 73" bulb, which is a T1 3/4 14V wedge base type. > > Bob Lash > bob at wbs.net Glad to hear that PUPS is of some help. There isn't really any official membership, though. If anybody joins the mailing list or signs the `I want a src license' petition, then I count 'em as members :-) On the source license front, Dion at SCO is still trying to push the legal section into producing something. I mailed him last week but haven't heard anything back. I've asked to establish some form of dialogue with the nay-sayers, to try & address their concerns about a personal src license. All this for a 20-year old piece of software! This list tends to be quiet. What did you all get up to over Christmas, and how are your PDP-11s going?! Did anybody ever get that tape from George Colouris in England and read its contents? Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14215 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 14:16:37 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From rmsmith at csc.com Thu Feb 19 13:14:50 1998 From: rmsmith at csc.com (Robert Smith) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:14:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: V7 on a PDP-11/23+ In-Reply-To: <199802182259.JAA09626@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Feb 19, 98 09:59:04 am Message-ID: Thanks for tweaking the list! Holidays were great in the DC area (USA). Weather was NICE. Only problem is the weather has been so nice I have been working on my cars instead of my 11s. The 63 ford blew the heater coil/heat exchanger. mumble grumble. The 67 buick is doing great - til yesterday on the way home from a little run. Brakes are acting up. Rain prevents getting at that in the driveway. With the rain, I have been playing with NetBSD on the vax!! waiting for Linux!! thanks! bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA14931 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:14 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From belfry at eudoramail.com Thu Feb 19 18:33:02 1998 From: belfry at eudoramail.com (Michael Kraus) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:02 -0700 Subject: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11) Message-ID: G'day All... In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine. I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it, and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter). Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney). I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet. Anyone who can help, please let me know. Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA16207 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 04:46:34 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From djenner at halcyon.com Fri Feb 20 03:46:10 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:46:10 -0800 Subject: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11) References: Message-ID: <34EC6FE2.56FC890@halcyon.com> Michael, You can get Venix (~V7/System III) for the Pro on the Internet at ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/venix/ The README file there has instructions on how to get it all booted. You need a PC that can write 1.2MB, 5.25in floppies. There isn't any networking support. Hardware wise, you need the Pro equivalent of the PDP-11 DEQNA and a transceiver. ftp.update.uu.se also has all the DEC P/OS software, which can do DECNET. Dave Michael Kraus wrote: > > G'day All... > > In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine. > > I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local > network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it, > and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter). > > Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in > which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the > terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney). > > I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet. > > Anyone who can help, please let me know. > > Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 330 bytes Desc: Card for David C. Jenner URL: From belfry at eudoramail.com Thu Feb 19 18:33:02 1998 From: belfry at eudoramail.com (Michael Kraus) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:02 -0700 Subject: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11) Message-ID: G'day All... In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine. I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it, and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter). Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney). I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet. Anyone who can help, please let me know. Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA25372 for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:28:27 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se Sun Feb 22 21:29:18 1998 From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:29:18 +0100 (MET) Subject: Putting that UNIX on hardware In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi gang! Would it be possible to generate RL02's from an ULTRIX uVAX with dd? Like, we have bootable systems for the emulator on file. Now suppose I recompile one of my ULTRIXen to recognize RL02 and then transfer that emulator UNIX filesystem file to it. Using dd I should be able to put the system on an RL02. Would that RL02 be bootable in a PDP11 system or do I need to put on some sort of boot information on a secret sector of the disk to make it bootable? IF it is bootable, is it legal to do it? If it is legal, is it legal to distribute that RL02 to a third party? IF it is possible AND legal I might be able to manufacture some RL02 UNIXen for you out there who got a PDP11 system but lack something to run on it. Provided you pay the expense for shipping, of course. =) I got a glassfibre box that can take two RL02 packs and this could perhaps be used to ship things in... Comments anyone? /Lars Persson, HARLOSA PD Computer Center Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA26798 for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:43:13 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Feb 23 07:44:14 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:44:14 +1100 (EST) Subject: Putting that UNIX on hardware In-Reply-To: from Beastly Wolf at "Feb 22, 98 12:29:18 pm" Message-ID: <199802222144.IAA15297@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Beastly Wolf: > Hi gang! > > Would it be possible to generate RL02's from an ULTRIX uVAX with dd? > Like, we have bootable systems for the emulator on file. > Now suppose I recompile one of my ULTRIXen to recognize RL02 and > then transfer that emulator UNIX filesystem file to it. > Using dd I should be able to put the system on an RL02. > Would that RL02 be bootable in a PDP11 system or do I need to > put on some sort of boot information on a secret sector of the disk > to make it bootable? I'm not a hardware guy, but I can't see any difficulties in doing this. The RL02 disk images have everything (incl. boot blocks) to get UNIX going. > IF it is bootable, is it legal to do it? > If it is legal, is it legal to distribute that RL02 to a third party? ONLY if the disk contains binaries ONLY. See the disk images that Bob Supnik distributes with his emulator, and the SCO copyright notice at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/Licenses/v7_bin_license.txt > IF it is possible AND legal I might be able to manufacture some RL02 UNIXen > for you out there who got a PDP11 system but lack something to run on it. > Provided you pay the expense for shipping, of course. =) Hopefully lots of people will take you up on this, Lars!! Thanks, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA01182 for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:35:42 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Feb 24 10:36:58 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:36:58 +1100 (EST) Subject: SCO PDP-11 License: closer Message-ID: <199802240036.LAA17631@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, I've just received the next draft of the proposed PDP-11 UNIX Source License from SCO. To me it looks good, and I'd be happy to sign it. I have passed a copy over to Steven Schultz: his 2.11BSD work is a derivative which could be affected by the license clauses. I'll try to get permission to release the draft to this mailing list from SCO. I've asked them how long it will take before licenses go on sale, once we've agreed with the draft license terms. More news as soon as I have it.... Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA02247 for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:04:41 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se Tue Feb 24 18:05:36 1998 From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:05:36 +0100 (MET) Subject: Project generate RL02. Message-ID: Hi again gang! It looks as if we can turn the binaries in PUPS's archive into hardware with dd, as my theory went. So I went forth and started to tinker a bit with my trusty old ULTRIX rig. I run into some problems though and before starting to fiddle with them myself, I thought I should ask out there if this is a known caveat. Here goes: My uVAX has an RQDX-3 controller, a controller for EAGLE disks, TQK50, DQNA and some sort of line card (A DHV-11 I think). I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and snipped some rows from the GENERIC file to make a good system. What struck me as if upon my head was that the CSR for the DQNA and the RL02 controller was the same. Vector is set by some intricate mechanism automagically though. Oh well, I maked the kernel and it booted fine. If found the hl device BUT! It also said (twice!) that the hl device did not interrupt. I do not have a drive connected though. I tried both with and without external terminator on the drive connector. No go. Same message. I am reluctant to put cards on non standard CSRs since the GENERIC kernel will not operate as intended and boy are those GENERIC kernels good to have! So here is the problem: What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get the darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the line? Or could the controller be bad? (Not to worry! I got more controllers laying about! =) ). If nobody got answers to this my next experiment will be to take out the DQNA and see if that helps. I am reluctant to fiddle to much with the cards since the machine is installed in a non standard 19" CRAMMED FULL kinda rack and is hard to service. /Lars Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA03167 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 01:47:58 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Feb 25 00:47:39 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:47:39 -0500 Subject: Project generate RL02. Message-ID: <199802241447.AA20016@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Feb 24, 98 09:47:39 am Message-ID: <9802241629.AA03005@alph02.triumf.ca> > > I take it that is the rlv12 controller as the rlv11 twoboard set is not > usable. The rlv11 (m8014/8014) must be plugged into a h9273 backplane > only! Actually, if you use an expansion BA23 it is possible to hook a RLV11 set to a uVax. Woe to the person that tries this, though, as there are bad things in store when the system begins doing any Q-bus transactions past the lower 248 Kbytes! The 18-bit-ness of the RLV11 is a very nasty form of 18-bit-ness, and not easily overcome like, say, the RXV21. > > likely yes, the drive must be connected. Certainly yes, if the Ultrix autoconfigure logic is anything like 2.11 BSD's was before I got fed up with it insisting that I have my RL units #0 when booting. To quote from 2.11BSD Patch #380: Subject: RL driver update, setvbuf(3) arrives in 2BSD, rdist fix (#380) Description: 1) 'autoconfig' only recognizes the RL controller if drive 0 is connected to the system at boot time. Repeat-by: 1) Boot a system with multiple RL drives, but with drive 0 not present. 'autoconfig' will not see an interrupt from the RL subsystem during its probe of drive 0, and as a result the rl driver will not be attached. Fix: 1) Modify /sys/autoconfig/rlauto.c so it tests only for the presence of the RL controller CSR, and doesn't wait for an interrupt. This is the same thing which is done in the TS11 probe routine because TS controllers can not be made to interrupt reliably if a tape is not at the load point and the drive is not online. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA04419 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:16:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Feb 25 08:17:42 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:17:42 +1100 (EST) Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources Message-ID: <199802242217.JAA22990@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 20325 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Feb 25 13:05:43 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:05:43 +1100 (EST) Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources In-Reply-To: <199802250258.SAA22923@rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> from Chris Drake at "Feb 24, 98 06:57:53 pm" Message-ID: <199802250305.OAA23864@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Chris Drake: > Not being a lawyer, it looks confusing but reasonable... > A couple of questions, though: > > - it looks to me like the $100 fee is a one-shot that covers more > than one CPU, as long as you specify them all at the outset. Or > is this supposed to be a per-CPU fee? > > - this also appears to be a fee for any or all of the versions of > the OS specified. Or is this supposed to be a per-version fee? > > - Chris Drake I'm told by Dion that you nominate the CPUs on which the software will be run. I have no idea how to nominate an emunated CPU. The one-off fee covers ALL nominated versions AND all successor versions (e.g the right to use PWB, AUSAM, 2BSD, System III etc.) The licensee also specifies which are the authorised countries. I hope/assume that I can specify my list of authorised countries as: All countries except Afghanistan, the People's Republic of China or any Group Q, S, W, Y or Z country specified in Supplement No. 1 to Section 370 of the Export Administration Regulations issued by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Hope this helps, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05244 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:07:28 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Feb 25 13:08:53 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:08:53 +1100 (EST) Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources In-Reply-To: <199802250259.AA24622@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Feb 24, 98 09:59:00 pm" Message-ID: <199802250308.OAA23877@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Allison J Parent: > Overall not bad. The price of $100US is not unresonable assuming the > media cost is not out of line. Still VMS can be had for FREE and media > (limited to CDrom only) is $30US. If the all up price were $100 > including machine readable media that would be something more > agreeable. > > What is open is what version would they provide and at what cost for > that vversion on media? I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can distribute the image with every license. If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provided we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwise. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05398 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:34:00 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Feb 25 13:35:25 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:35:25 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 System III - copies? Message-ID: <199802250335.OAA23908@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Looking at that license from SCO, we should be able to legally use System III. Does anybody have a copy I can add to the archive? Thanks, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05409 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:34:25 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Wed Feb 25 13:34:11 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:11 +1030 Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources In-Reply-To: <199802250308.OAA23877@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 02:08:53PM +1100 References: <199802250259.AA24622@world.std.com> <199802250308.OAA23877@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980225140411.14345@freebie.lemis.com> On Wed, 25 February 1998 at 14:08:53 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Allison J Parent: >> Overall not bad. The price of $100US is not unresonable assuming the >> media cost is not out of line. Still VMS can be had for FREE and media >> (limited to CDrom only) is $30US. If the all up price were $100 >> including machine readable media that would be something more >> agreeable. >> >> What is open is what version would they provide and at what cost for >> that vversion on media? > > I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion > is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest > to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can > distribute the image with every license. How many CDs are we looking at? Maybe I can arrange something. > If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provided > we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are > going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwise. Maybe you should point that out and change that to "notification". Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05534 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:57:32 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Feb 25 13:58:56 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:58:56 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 Applications Message-ID: <199802250358.OAA24047@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Dear All, I'm just looking at my proposed CD image for PDP-11 systems, and there's an empty directory called Applications, which can hold applications written specifically for PDP-11 UNIX systems. I haven't got anything to put in there! No, I do have a very old Usenix tape from Jay Jaeger, dated Sept 1977. Does anybody have anything that might go in here for v6, v7, 2BSD, PWB. Alternatively, does anybody know where full archives of comp.sources.unix are on the 'net?? If there's space, I'd like to have some things like this on the CD. Ta, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA05636 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:19:16 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Wed Feb 25 14:07:04 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:37:04 +1030 Subject: Changing passwords with 2.11BSD Message-ID: <19980225143704.65511@freebie.lemis.com> I've just installed a 2.11BSD, and I'm having some funny problems. Here's one; I'll make a separate message of the other. I've added a new user with vipw. When I try to change the password, I get this: login: root Password: Last login: Sat Aug 9 02:25:12 on console 2.11 BSD UNIX #7: Fri Aug 8 14:14:34 MET DST [1] root--> passwd grog Changing password for grog. New password: Retype new password: passwd: mkpasswd failed; password unchanged. [2] root--> If I run mkpasswd against /etc/master.passwd, it works fine. But that way I can't change my password. Any ideas? Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA06632 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:06:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Feb 25 22:05:50 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:05:50 -0500 Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources Message-ID: <199802251205.AA07228@world.std.com> ----- Forwarded message from Alan Bain ----- >From afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk Thu Feb 26 01:08:57 1998 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:07:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Alan Bain X-Sender: afrb2 at red.csi.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: Alan Bain To: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: System III Message-ID: I remember seeing this on the mailing list a while ago and wondered what became of the Sys III (no that it's of any use to me with an 11/34!). Hope you track down a copy.... I'm still looking for the pre AT&T V5 versions myself ... someone seems to have had a very early version here in Cambridge UK but I can find out what became of it. There may have even been a PDP-7 running unix at one point here. The CL are hopelessly disorganised about such stuff -- it goes in the `old junk' category and unfortunately they love to wipe tapes just in case they contain proprietary software. However I now have access to a half inch drive on a sun (certainly 1600 & 6250 BPI, possibly more useful lower BPI also). If anyone in the UK has such tapes I'm most willing to try and read them. Alan Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA08405 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:10:46 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Feb 26 08:12:16 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:12:16 +1100 (EST) Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources In-Reply-To: <34F446F9.E9AD729F@pa.dec.com> from Paul McJones at "Feb 25, 98 08:29:45 am" Message-ID: <199802252212.JAA25371@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Paul McJones: > Given that "Lions' Commentary on Unix : With Source Code" has been > published as a book under normal copyright, all the focus on designated > cpus and audits and such in this draft license seems very heavyweight to > me. Does SCO really believe someone is going to start with the 7th > edition code and evolve it into a commercial offering competitive with > SCO's latest? No, what the legal guys have done is take the original v7 license and alter it enough to keep us happy. This is why there are such hangovers as designated CPUs. They probably did this to: + minimise the work they had to do, and + prevent a product being licensed under widely different systems If they created a completely new license, there may be a legal slant: e.g hey I own an original Western Electric v7 license, and now SCO's selling licenses which allow export of code to China (for example). That's unfair, because my license prevents that. Sue, sue!! [Maybe I'm just being paranoid here]. Anyway, the CPU restriction is BOGUS. SCO already have a binary license for v5, v6 and v7 which allows you to run these systems on an UNLIMITED number of CPUs. I can't see how they are going to enforce the CPU restriction in the new license. I think Dion suggested that auditing was probably not going to happen. Mind you, don't hold him to that! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA08480 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:35:40 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Feb 26 08:37:10 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:37:10 +1100 (EST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely Message-ID: <199802252237.JAA25560@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Dion in SCO says: > What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd > be prepared to do this? > Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and > free stuff programs to do this. I was hoping you enthusiasts already > have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed. > > E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a > filled out license form. Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS > society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out > how to service the new guy. Would that work? So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-) Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA08656 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:24:44 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Thu Feb 26 09:24:34 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:54:34 +1030 Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <199802252237.JAA25560@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 09:37:10AM +1100 References: <199802252237.JAA25560@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980226095434.51853@freebie.lemis.com> On Thu, 26 February 1998 at 9:37:10 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > Dion in SCO says: > >> What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd >> be prepared to do this? > >> Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and >> free stuff programs to do this. I was hoping you enthusiasts already >> have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed. >> >> E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a >> filled out license form. Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS >> society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out >> how to service the new guy. Would that work? > > So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO > license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-) Don't say I didn't tell you. I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA08684 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:33:55 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Feb 26 09:35:25 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:35:25 +1100 (EST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <19980226095434.51853@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Feb 26, 98 09:54:34 am" Message-ID: <199802252335.KAA25775@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> > Don't say I didn't tell you. Oh, I was expecting this. > I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. > Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a > period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the > CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. > I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, > and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of > tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write > (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. I'd like to see: + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes + a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe). Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd need the volunteers to have PGP too. If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc. You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution. We're going to have to work on this in the next few months. Thanks for all your suggestions & volunteering! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA09286 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:00:35 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Thu Feb 26 10:00:14 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:30:14 +1030 Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <199802252335.KAA25775@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 10:35:25AM +1100 References: <19980226095434.51853@freebie.lemis.com> <199802252335.KAA25775@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980226103014.06033@freebie.lemis.com> On Thu, 26 February 1998 at 10:35:25 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: >> Don't say I didn't tell you. > > Oh, I was expecting this. > >> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. >> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a >> period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the >> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. >> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, >> and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of >> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write >> (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. > > I'd like to see: > >> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs >> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes I can volunteer for this. The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500 (8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel 1600 bpi. >> a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels > > in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe). Europe and UK separately, eh? > Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm > hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone. That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand. One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses RockRidge format (UNIX long file names). It would be a real pain to be limited to DOS-style naming. > As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably > via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd > need the volunteers to have PGP too. Not a problem. > If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc. > You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution. Seems reasonable. Greg -- Greg Lehey LEMIS grog at lemis.com PO Box 460 Tel: +61-8-8388-8286 Echunga SA 5153 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Australia -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.3ia mQCNAzTb3SMAAAEEAMS8rCMuqbX0llo8lPuE+m1/bHTNN4q3o2OFi1t9WXlYd063 XslucmHTYRk+f0OznRpcAuyr1pvYqfnl0Gi5uys/CopKiwaouXZYjSW6PzVnTQza QJKuQwlpSUJhrcj9qXn5CW6FCLRXRcZdSezTZmDPV2jKXadD30ciy96pXaeVAAUR tA5ncm9nQGxlbWlzLmNvbYkAlQMFEDTb3SRHIsveqV2nlQEBnbQD+wf6JL7GgPbM Ql+TK9ZpYUBo+brvkg4GdgWVHbiHEue8dxm0vgEB+K4GpCJEYAx+x6L7ZM4iF4Nv axzS1UrVru9IYforM51jODk4mxZAySTspIbEzmBTY5/7N2i3b4kkiqeCdVKTy2c2 fwkb1+F6EZXY8xaxIFtu3NGRxR0Pd2Am =M7yb -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 290 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rmsmith at csc.com Thu Feb 26 10:36:25 1998 From: rmsmith at csc.com (Robert Smith) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:36:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources In-Reply-To: <199802252212.JAA25371@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Feb 26, 98 09:12:16 am Message-ID: Warren, and the rest of us! Thanks! Everyone who has commented has covered all the same ground that I would with the license discussion! I will take what I can get to be legal! Thanks for all the work on this!! bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA12525 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:57:56 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk Fri Feb 27 01:57:39 1998 From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:57:39 GMT Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources In-Reply-To: <199802242217.JAA22990@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> References: <199802242217.JAA22990@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <199802261557.PAA13264@dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about this, but if I read this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of the 4BSD releases as well. Of course all the recent ones are free already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of stuff from System V?). I'd be quite interested in 4.2 and 4.3 as I have a machine that runs 4.2 (not a vax...). I suspect that the 4BSD situation must be fairly well understood by someone, since there were all these legal arguments a few years ago when the various PC BSDs started appearing in a big way. Does anyone know what the real story is? --tim -- Tim Bradshaw, System Manager, Artificial Intelligence Applications Institute, University of Edinburgh Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA13228 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:21:55 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Fri Feb 27 06:23:30 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:23:30 +1100 (EST) Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources In-Reply-To: <199802261557.PAA13264@dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "Feb 26, 98 03:57:39 pm" Message-ID: <199802262023.HAA26835@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Tim Bradshaw: > I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about this, but if I read > this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of > the 4BSD releases as well. Of course all the recent ones are free > already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're > derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of > stuff from System V?). No, the successor systems are specified as 16-bit, and that excludes the 4BSD systems as they ran on the Vax. Besides, UCB still owns these systems. Keith Bostic has mentioned that a back-burner project is to get all the 4BSD releases onto CD-ROMs, and make them available to people with licenses for 32V. He knows about the new SCO licenses. Perhaps we can start encouraging him once we get out licenses?! P.S Why do you think I fought to get 32V covered by the SCO license? I wanted to be able to buy these 4BSD CD-ROMs! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA17819 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 06:24:28 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From sms at moe.2bsd.com Sat Feb 28 05:07:40 1998 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:07:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely Message-ID: <199802271907.LAA25828@moe.2bsd.com> Howdy - > From: Greg Lehey > I can volunteer for this. The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500 > (8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel 1600 bpi. Are there any UNIBUS/Qbus controllers that can deal with QIC-150? I tried putting a Wangtek 5150ES on a Emulex UC08 and it didn't work at all. The only 'QIC' format I've seen work (and which preserves record boundaries) is the TK25 (uses the DC600A tapes). I can make TK25 tapes. I can also make 6250bpi 9-track until the tapedrive wears out (at which point I'm unlikely to sink the rather high $$$ to repair/replace it - 4mm drives are a lot cheaper ;-)). > > Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm > > hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. > > Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's > a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone. You've me to thank for that ;-) > That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM > wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand. I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and applied. > One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses > RockRidge format (UNIX long file names). It would be a real pain to Of course! There will be .MAP files to assist those systems that need help with long filenames or deep directories. Steven Schultz Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA18053 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 07:38:54 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 28 06:37:13 1998 From: robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:37:13 +0000 Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <199802252335.KAA25775@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: In message <199802252335.KAA25775 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey writes >> Don't say I didn't tell you. > >Oh, I was expecting this. > >> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. >> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a >> period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the >> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. >> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, >> and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of >> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write >> (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. > >I'd like to see: > > + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs > + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes > + a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels > Can do TK50, Exabyte, 0.25 SCSI cassette and will build kernels of anything that I can safely get up on my 11/73. This will be for UK distrib although I'll send anywhere if the postage is reimbursed. Robin PS, I may be able to do TS05 in the future. Robin Birch robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA20210 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:35:46 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Sat Feb 28 11:35:28 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:05:28 +1030 Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <199802271907.LAA25828@moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 11:07:40AM -0800 References: <199802271907.LAA25828@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <19980228120528.31861@freebie.lemis.com> On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 11:07:40 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Howdy - > >> From: Greg Lehey >>> Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm >>> hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. >> >> Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's >> a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone. > > You've me to thank for that ;-) Indeed. Thanks. >> That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM >> wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand. > > I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. > The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either > FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD > then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and > applied. Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff to be up to date? Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20480 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:17:47 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Feb 28 14:17:37 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:17:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <19980228120528.31861@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Feb 28, 98 12:05:28 pm Message-ID: <9802280417.AA20644@alph02.triumf.ca> > > I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. > > The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either > > FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD > > then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and > > applied. > > Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred > CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff > to be up to date? You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one. What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD? Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and it's a hell of a lot more convenient for installs on Unibus and Q-bus -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution. It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20523 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:39:41 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Sat Feb 28 14:39:26 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:09:26 +1030 Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <9802280417.AA20644@alph02.triumf.ca>; from Tim Shoppa on Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 08:17:37PM -0800 References: <19980228120528.31861@freebie.lemis.com> <9802280417.AA20644@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <19980228150926.00518@freebie.lemis.com> On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 20:17:37 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote: >>> I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. >>> The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either >>> FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD >>> then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and >>> applied. >> >> Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred >> CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff >> to be up to date? > > You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that > he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one. > > What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing > updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD? Well, no, I had made a suggestion that, with the quantities involved, it might be easier to burn WORMs. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20542 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:44:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From sms at moe.2bsd.com Sat Feb 28 14:43:41 1998 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:43:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely Message-ID: <199802280443.UAA00780@moe.2bsd.com> Tim - > What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing > updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD? The pace is slowing down due to lack of copious free time for major projects but yeah, i kinda figure every couple months I'll find something that needs fixing/tweeking/etc ;) > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive for my 11 - they're nice. I don't like the DB25 style of cable that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox. > -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution. Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to the 11/73. Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not with the Emulex UC08. For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000 appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives). The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs at drives that don't do variable record mode. Do the CMD adaptors do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices? > It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I > have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable > CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the ISO9660 filesystem. Now a MO drive that used 512 byte sector'd media should work just fine - but that style of drive is fading in popularity. > boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? It'll panic. For a couple reasons: pipes are implemented via the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes needs a rw filesystem. And a swap area is needed. If there's memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of swap space. It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk but it's not clear to me it'd be worth the trouble. Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA20703 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:07:33 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Feb 28 16:07:21 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:07:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm Message-ID: <9802280607.AA30497@alph02.triumf.ca> > > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP > > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all > > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and > > How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? On my Andromeda SCDC, the effective transfer rate to the Q-bus is just under a megabyte per second. In other words: damn fast. (Fast 7200 RPM SCSI-II hard drives will get 1.5-2 Mbyte second). Booting from ZIP is far, far faster than booting from a RD54. I posted some benchmarks to vmsnet.pdp-11 two months or so ago. > I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive > for my 11 - they're nice. I don't like the DB25 style of cable > that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the > rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox. That aren't all that rare. You just have to go someplace other than Fry's, that's all :-). > > -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution. > > Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up > with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to > the 11/73. Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not > with the Emulex UC08. For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000 > appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect > the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives). > The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs > at drives that don't do variable record mode. Do the CMD adaptors > do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices? The problem is that most QIC devices are commonly operated in fixed-size- block mode, something that TMSCP doesn't really grok well unless its hidden under a layer that hides this and allows for variable-sized "virtual" blocks. (Your TK25 takes care of all of this for you automagically.) > > have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable > > CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will > > Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the > ISO9660 filesystem. That's OK. The MSCP controllers make each 2048 byte sector look like 4 512-byte blocks. And you don't need to lay down a ISO9660 filesystem; if you throw away the idiotic software that comes with the PC-clone CD-ROM writers, you can put any filesystem you like down. I've built bootable RT-11 CD-ROM's this way. > > boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? > > It'll panic. For a couple reasons: pipes are implemented via > the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes > needs a rw filesystem. And a swap area is needed. If there's > memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but > argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of > swap space. It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk RT-11 also wants a writable swap file, and this is indeed provided by using a RAM disk (i.e. VM:). > but it's not > clear to me it'd be worth the trouble. It depends on how convenient you find installation from CD-ROM :-). I find the bootable ZIP disk very convenient for "recovery media", and they're a whole lot easier to fit in my shirt pocket than a RL02 cart! Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se Sat Feb 28 22:55:25 1998 From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 13:55:25 +0100 (MET) Subject: That RL02 blues. Message-ID: Synopsis: I am trying to install an RLV12 and an RL02 drive under ULTRIX so that I can generate RL02 disks from the emulator software in the PUPS software library. The ultimate goal is to have a machine where one can copy bootable systems to people who do not have any vintage UNIX but have the hardware. However! There sure is a great fat wall to bump into here.... First try was a uVAX-II that is a part of my collection of vintage machines. This rig runs Ultrix 4.2 (with updates). Here is the system messages when booting the GENERIC kernel: Loading (a) vmunix ... sizes: text = 719932 data = 116224 bss = 398512 starting at 0xc19 ULTRIX V4.2 (Rev. 96) System#1: Mon Feb 23 13:40:07 EST 1998 real mem = 7335936 avail mem = 4779008 using 179 buffers containing 733184 bytes of memory. MicroVAX-II with an fpu Q22 bus uda0 at uba0 uq0 at uda0 csr 172150 vec 774 ipl 17 vvv****The RL02 driver!***vvv hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt ^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^ klesiu0 at uba0 uq6 at klesiu0 and so on. The system then successfully loads uq16, dz0, ra0 and tms0. This is what I did so far: 1) I made a system configuration file containing only the devices I got plus hl0 (that is the RL02 driver). Same effect as above. 2) To rule out that this was something in hardware I built an entire new machine from scratch using spare parts. Not ONE thing was used from the original system. I also installed ULTRIX 4.0 to be sure. Guess what... When booting the GENERIC kernel, the same thing occured. During all test: The RL02-drive(s) were spun up with a scratch disk in them. On both systems they were set as drive 0 and had terminators. *despair* When trying to reach the disk by make-ing a file system on it, the system snorts at me telling me to go and fly a kite. Watch this: # newfs /dev/rrl0a rl02 newfs: /dev/rrl0a: cannot open to read partition table: No such device or address newfs: /dev/rrl0a: cannot open: No such device or address However, the device files are in place. System just can not find the board. =/ Any clue anybody? (I know that this is tedious for you all but it is for a good cause, okay? ) /Lars Persson Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA22081 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:08:57 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f