From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 1 01:08:24 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:08:24 -0500 Subject: That RL02 blues. Message-ID: <199802281508.AA24580@world.std.com> I've had an RL02 working on an 11/750 running BSD4.3. The RL11 controller only has 16 words of buffer memory, so you've got to make sure that other devices don't hog the bus too much. In particular, UDAs should have their DMA burst set to something like 1. Setting it much higher causes the RL11 to get data lates as its silo overflows before it gets access to the bus to do DMA. However, the RLV12 seems to have a much bigger silo (256 bytes?), so this should't be a problem for it. The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems &c. If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last device on the bus. James Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA23015 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:59:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Mar 1 03:58:27 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:58:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: RL02 meets BSD In-Reply-To: <199802281618.QAA20434@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> from "J Lothian" at Feb 28, 98 04:18:57 pm Message-ID: <9802281758.AA14586@alph02.triumf.ca> > The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems > &c. This certainly seems likely to me, too. What cards are in the machine, and in which slots? What are the switches on the RLV12 set to? > If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind > that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last > device on the bus. I think you're thinking of the RQDX1/2 here. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA24673 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:46:02 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Mar 1 14:45:51 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:45:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm Message-ID: <9803010445.AA18387@alph02.triumf.ca> > > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP > > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all > > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and > > How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? In case anyone is interested in the benchmarks, here's a short summary: Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an "internal" SCSI ZIP) are present on my main development machine, a 11/73 (KDJ11-B) with 2 Mbytes of non-PMI memory. Caching on both controllers was enabled and two benchmarks were done with each disk subsystem. Times reported below are "wall times". All of this is done under the latest release of 2.11BSD using a non-networking system and no other work being done on the system. 1. "make sendmail" took 1159.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi, and 1165.3 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. It looks like, for most purposes, the ZIP on a good SCSI host adapter is just as good as an ESDI drive on a good ESDI controller. I think Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time, but I think that the buffering in the host adapter and in the ZIP drive itself makes this a minor concern. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25119 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:01:49 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se Sun Mar 1 18:02:45 1998 From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:02:45 +0100 (MET) Subject: That RL02 blues In-Reply-To: <199802281508.AA24580@world.std.com> Message-ID: Grant chain was intact on both machines. On the second machine the MSCP device was placed below the RLV12 and the RA disk worked fine! /Lars On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > <^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^ > > > That suggests the interrupt grant chain was not intact. Look to see if > one of the slots needs a grant card. Watch out as a few cards DO NOT > pass grant! > > > I understand why you would use rl02 they are handy. I have no experience > with them in unix context only Qbus VAX (under VMS) and PDP-11s under > rt-11/rsts/rsx-11 so I can't comment on software setup. > > Allison > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25136 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:05:29 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se Sun Mar 1 18:06:26 1998 From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:06:26 +0100 (MET) Subject: RL02 meets BSD In-Reply-To: <199802281618.QAA20434@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: Both systems have "pirate" drive controllers and they have cards that do pass grant signals. If I do not remember wrongly, I think that only RQDX-1 had the "feature" of not passing the grant chain. But we placed all RQDX controller at the bottom anyhow even though they worked further up. THis is of academical interest only since I do not have holes in the grant chain and do not have an RQDX controllers AND I have devices below the drive controller in the first case that do work! /Lars On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, J Lothian wrote: > I've had an RL02 working on an 11/750 running > BSD4.3. The RL11 controller only has 16 words of > buffer memory, so you've got to make sure that other > devices don't hog the bus too much. In particular, > UDAs should have their DMA burst set to something like 1. > Setting it much higher causes the RL11 to get data lates > as its silo overflows before it gets access to the bus > to do DMA. However, the RLV12 seems to have a much bigger > silo (256 bytes?), so this should't be a problem for it. > > The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems > &c. If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind > that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last > device on the bus. > > James > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25220 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:37:03 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se Sun Mar 1 18:37:58 1998 From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:37:58 +0100 (MET) Subject: RL02 meets BSD In-Reply-To: <9802281758.AA14586@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: For various reasons I can not give you the hardware config of the first system (Okay okay! I DO not want to crawl back in behind it under all the cabling and short out the house again because I did something aggravating to the power outlet in the process the last time I was in there) but the only thing I did to that one was to add the RLV12 at the bottom. The system worked before with all devices and did so afterwards too except for the RLV-controller. The second system looks like this: A B C D 1 CPU-----CPU-----CPU-----CPU 2 MEM-----MEM-----MEM-----MEM 3 RLV12---RLV12---RLV12---RLV12 4 TKQ50---TKQ50 DQNA----DQNA 5 SI------SI------SI------SI GLUED BACKPLANE FROM HERE AND DOWN (this used to be a VAX-station II. Remember them and cringe!) SI is a quad ESDI controller for one or two external drives from System Industries. On the other system I have a dual SI controller for RA81 clones (Eagle). There I DO have an RQDX-3 above the RLV12 but not so here. Grant chain on the uVAX bus looks like this: 1AB-2AB-3AB-4AB-4CD-5CD-5AB(and so on). The first three slots are "granted" only in the AB pair. The RLV12 does work with grants only on the AB pair however. It works fine in my three button 9 slot 22 bit backplane (classical PDP11 vintage rack mount cab) and there the grant chain goes ONLY on the AB side stright down (BA11-N and H9273). So, no, I do not think we have a grant problem. However, does the RLV12 handle drive interrupt like the RL11 does? It could be that ULTRIX only supports the UNIBUS controller and not the Qbus.. And if so, is there a fix for this out there? And if not, how do I get hold of enough NetBSD to get a uVAX up enough to have the config above, being able to network and being able to reach both the SI controller and the RLV12? Come to think of it, most of the no nonsense hard hat industry type PDP11's I've seen (and especially the OEM-ed ones) got some sort of winchester emulating one or several RL02s. Often combined with some sort of QIC-type tape recorder with secret density. To get ANYTHING on those rigs, I think you HAVE to do it the dd way after having moved the controller to a bigger system.... Amazing how things can turn... I used to spend a lot of time in trying to get away from the 16 bit operating systems into the wonderful world of 32 bit. Now I am struggling even harder to get back in there again. =) Fun is not always bigger, faster better! /Lars On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems > > &c. > > This certainly seems likely to me, too. What cards are in the > machine, and in which slots? What are the switches on the RLV12 > set to? > > > If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind > > that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last > > device on the bus. > > I think you're thinking of the RQDX1/2 here. > > Tim. > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA26727 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:58:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Mar 2 04:57:46 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:57:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: RL02 meets BSD In-Reply-To: from "Beastly Wolf" at Mar 1, 98 09:37:58 am Message-ID: <9803011857.AA28081@alph02.triumf.ca> > The second system looks like this: > A B C D > 1 CPU-----CPU-----CPU-----CPU > 2 MEM-----MEM-----MEM-----MEM > 3 RLV12---RLV12---RLV12---RLV12 > 4 TKQ50---TKQ50 DQNA----DQNA > 5 SI------SI------SI------SI > GLUED BACKPLANE FROM HERE AND DOWN > (this used to be a VAX-station II. > Remember them and cringe!) Ah, the "RC" aka "restricted configuration" aka "resin-coated" backplane. The BA23 has a special CD-bus in the first three slots. Usually it's not a problem to put a full-height card in the third slot, below the CPU and memory, but occasionally there are quad-height cards which actually pay some attention to stuff going on the CD side of the bus. Can you try rearranging your cards so that you have a dual-height card (i.e. the TKQ50 or DEQNA) in slot 3 AB, you have the 3 CD empty, and the RLV12 in slot 4? This involves you giving up either your TKQ50 or DEQNA, but I'm hoping that you can live without one or the other for a little while. Also, how are the jumpers/DIPswitches set on the RLV12? It's possible to do some weird things by sticking the RLV12 into 16-bit or 18-bit mode or by having the VEC set to something used by one of your other cards. If either of these is the case, regard the fact that the controller isn't usable as a Good Thing; having a RLV12 in 18-bit mode splatter data all around low memory isn't fun! Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA26876 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:43:50 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From sms at moe.2bsd.com Mon Mar 2 05:25:54 1998 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:25:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely Message-ID: <199803011925.LAA08986@moe.2bsd.com> Hi - > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Feb 28 20:45:54 1998 > > Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and > an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an I tracked down an address and phone number for Andromeda Systems - they are real close to me (in fact I drive by them every visit to Fry's ;-)) Andromeda Systems, Inc. 9000 Eton Avenue Canoga Park, CA 91304 818-709-7600 (voice) 818-709-7407 (FAX) No mention of a WWW site though. I'd imagine their boards, while very good, are quite expensive. As much as I'd like a Zip drive on the 11/93 I can't see spending US$1-2k for a $139 disk drive :-) > 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi > and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. WOW. That is quite surprising. > Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time, Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek' operations. Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip? I know there's the 2gb Jaz drive now but haven't heard anymore about a larger Zip. On the other hand there is the Syquest product line - they've a 135mb "zip like" (but not compatible) drive. Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA26957 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:09:53 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Mar 2 06:09:46 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:09:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <199803011925.LAA08986@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Mar 1, 98 11:25:54 am Message-ID: <9803012009.AA19319@alph02.triumf.ca> > > Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and > > an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an > I tracked down an address and phone number for Andromeda Systems - they > are real close to me (in fact I drive by them every visit to Fry's ;-)) > Andromeda Systems, Inc. > 9000 Eton Avenue > Canoga Park, CA 91304 > 818-709-7600 (voice) > 818-709-7407 (FAX) > > No mention of a WWW site though. Try http://www.andromedasystems.com/ > I'd imagine their boards, while > very good, are quite expensive. As much as I'd like a Zip drive > on the 11/93 I can't see spending US$1-2k for a $139 disk drive :-) Hook up 6 other SCSI devices to the board and you might change your mind! The SCDC also supports standard 34-pin 5.25" and 3.5" floppies. > > 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi > > and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. > > WOW. That is quite surprising. > > > Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time, > > Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek' > operations. Actually, the ZIP "in-use" LED wasn't lit during most of the 'find'. I suspect the Andromeda SCDC cached most of the important inodes quite early on. In terms of raw bandwidth to the Q-bus, nothing I've ever seen comes close to the SCDC. 2 Mbytes/second may not be a whole lot by modern PCI bus standards, but on the Q-bus it's very impressive. > Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip? I've heard mention of it too, but AFAIK it's still vaporware. 100 Mbytes is, indeed, pretty tight for a 2.11BSD distribution, but it does fit. Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA27003 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:32:58 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From jimc at zach1.tiac.net Mon Mar 2 06:32:20 1998 From: jimc at zach1.tiac.net (James E. Carpenter) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:32:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <199803011925.LAA08986@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Mar 1, 98 11:25:54 am Message-ID: > > Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time, > > Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek' > operations. > > Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip? I know there's the > 2gb Jaz drive now but haven't heard anymore about a larger Zip. On > the other hand there is the Syquest product line - they've a 135mb > "zip like" (but not compatible) drive. I don't know anything about larger Zip drives but Syquest makes the EZFlyer 230MB which is compatible with the EZFlyer 135. I got one for Christmas and love it. I _believe_ it's a bit faster than the Zip. The EZFlyer data sheet is at http://www.syquest.com/products/d_ezflyer.html in case anybody is interested. - Jim -- James E. Carpenter E-Mail: jimc at zach1.tiac.net 6 Munroe Drive Plainville, MA 02762-1108 ICBM: 42 00' 15"N 71 20' 00"W PGP: 7ADE9D99 Fingerprint: 8D AF 63 EC D3 51 14 3E F1 59 8A 68 32 63 3F 8E Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA27181 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:46:55 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 2 07:47:07 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:47:07 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs Message-ID: <199803012147.IAA01813@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, re the question `Are CD-ROMs the best method of distributing the PUPS archive of PDP-11 UNIX material'? The answer is: it's a good method, for the following reasons: + you can't easily write over the CD-ROM + impervious to magnetic fields + the PUPS archive is always going to be changing, as I find and add new stuff to it. + the SCO license enforces that I get written permission before I pass anything to a third party. Taking this in a conservative fashion, this might rule out a password-protected ftp archive. However, I'll check with Dion at SCO on this. + we can only charge fees for copying and distribution, and cannot make money on the CD-ROMs Therefore, treat the archive CD-ROM like you would the FreeBSD or Linux distributions on CD-ROM: they will go out of date, but you can purchase new versions of the CD-ROM, and they should be relatively inexpensive. Ok, so CD-ROMs are not the _best_ method of distributing the archive, but they are a _good_ way of doing so. Ciao, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27230 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:09:37 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Mon Mar 2 08:09:25 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:39:25 +1030 Subject: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs In-Reply-To: <199803012147.IAA01813@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 08:47:07AM +1100 References: <199803012147.IAA01813@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980302083925.10323@freebie.lemis.com> On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 8:47:07 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > All, > re the question `Are CD-ROMs the best method of distributing the > PUPS archive of PDP-11 UNIX material'? The answer is: it's a good method, for > the following reasons: > > + you can't easily write over the CD-ROM > + impervious to magnetic fields > + the PUPS archive is always going to be changing, as I find and > add new stuff to it. > + the SCO license enforces that I get written permission before I > pass anything to a third party. Taking this in a conservative > fashion, this might rule out a password-protected ftp archive. > However, I'll check with Dion at SCO on this. > + we can only charge fees for copying and distribution, and cannot > make money on the CD-ROMs > > Therefore, treat the archive CD-ROM like you would the FreeBSD or Linux > distributions on CD-ROM: they will go out of date, but you can purchase > new versions of the CD-ROM, and they should be relatively inexpensive. I still miss the distinction between CD-ROMs and WORMs. CD-ROMs are relatively expensive in small quantities, not just because of the setup costs, but also because of the wastage involved. WORMs (writeable CD-ROMs) are probably a better choice for the anticipated volume. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27282 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:29:10 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 2 08:29:23 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:29:23 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs In-Reply-To: <19980302083925.10323@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 2, 98 08:39:25 am" Message-ID: <199803012229.JAA01996@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Greg Lehey: > On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 8:47:07 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > > All, > > re the question `Are CD-ROMs the best method of distributing the > > PUPS archive of PDP-11 UNIX material'? The answer is: it's a good method, > > for the following reasons: > I still miss the distinction between CD-ROMs and WORMs. CD-ROMs are > relatively expensive in small quantities, not just because of the > setup costs, but also because of the wastage involved. WORMs > (writeable CD-ROMs) are probably a better choice for the anticipated > volume. > Greg Sorry, my fault. I use CD-ROM to mean anything which can be read in a CD-ROM drive. That obviously includes CD-W, which is what I really mean here. Ciao, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27317 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:38:20 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 2 08:38:33 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:38:33 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs In-Reply-To: <199803012228.OAA27094@rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> from Chris Drake at "Mar 1, 98 02:28:21 pm" Message-ID: <199803012238.JAA02051@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Chris Drake: > >Ok, so CD-ROMs are not the _best_ method of distributing the archive, but > >they are a _good_ way of doing so. > > Sounds good to me... Just out of curiosity, got any idea how many people are > on this list and/or might want a CD? I may have a limited ability to cut > some at work, but not if we're talking lots. I'd say at least 100 initially, and at least 300 in the first 12 months. I'm trying to organise a bunch of people who can burn CDs, to keep the individual workload down. I'll be creating a Rock Ridge image using mkisofs from the archive here. People who are prepared to burn CDs can either download the image, or the entire archive. For the latter, I'll include a makefile to build the CD image. Oviously, people who do mirror the archive: + will be asked to burn CDs, and will do so, + must be covered by a license. I will need either a signed letter (on paper) describing the license, or a PGP-signed email describing the license, before I can give access to the archive. Does this sound reasonable, everyone? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27506 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:17:32 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Mon Mar 2 10:17:01 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:47:01 +1030 Subject: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs In-Reply-To: <199803012238.JAA02051@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 09:38:33AM +1100 References: <199803012228.OAA27094@rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> <199803012238.JAA02051@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980302104701.60748@freebie.lemis.com> On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 9:38:33 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Chris Drake: >>> Ok, so CD-ROMs are not the _best_ method of distributing the archive, but >>> they are a _good_ way of doing so. >> >> Sounds good to me... Just out of curiosity, got any idea how many people are >> on this list and/or might want a CD? I may have a limited ability to cut >> some at work, but not if we're talking lots. > > I'd say at least 100 initially, and at least 300 in the first 12 months. > I'm trying to organise a bunch of people who can burn CDs, to keep the > individual workload down. > > I'll be creating a Rock Ridge image using mkisofs from the archive here. > People who are prepared to burn CDs can either download the image, or the > entire archive. For the latter, I'll include a makefile to build the CD image. > > Oviously, people who do mirror the archive: > > + will be asked to burn CDs, and will do so, As I mentioned before, I can cut tapes, but not burn CDs. I think this is still a valuable service. > + must be covered by a license. I will need either a signed > letter (on paper) describing the license, or a PGP-signed > email describing the license, before I can give access to > the archive. Right. Any further news about when this could happen? > Does this sound reasonable, everyone? Modulo my point above, yes. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27526 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:24:46 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 2 10:25:00 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:25:00 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs Message-ID: <199803020025.LAA06066@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Greg writes: >> Oviously, people who do mirror the archive: >> will be asked to burn CDs, and will do so, >> > As I mentioned before, I can cut tapes, but not burn CDs. I think > this is still a valuable service. Apologies again, Greg. Yes cutting tapes will also be valuable, esp. for people who have a PDP-11. > Right. Any further news about when this could happen? No, I'm waiting on feedback from Dion. He did say he had started the process of making it a product, but I don't have an ETA for it at the moment. Many thanks again for volunteering!! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA27839 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:41:04 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 2 11:41:16 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:41:16 +1100 (EST) Subject: Part of PUPS Archive via FTP Message-ID: <199803020141.MAA06698@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, To show you what I'm thinking of for the CD-ROM version of the PUPS archive, I've put the unlicensed parts up for anonymous ftp at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/PUPS_Archive/ I've kept the directory structure intact, but you won't find any files that require a source license. I'd appreciate any comments. Note that there's a directory called Trees missing. It will contain `exploded' trees for v6, v7 and 2.11BSD. The Lists directory is interesting: it contains tar vtf listings of all tarballs in the archive, with added checksums so you can determine identical files in multiple tarballs. This is all rough cut at the moment, so don't treat anything as unchangeable. Warren From jorgen.pehrson at seinf.mail.abb.com Mon Mar 2 20:30:40 1998 From: jorgen.pehrson at seinf.mail.abb.com (jorgen.pehrson at seinf.mail.abb.com) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:30:40 +0100 Subject: Some PDP11 Q.. Message-ID: <412565BB.0036DA5F.00@notestest.mail.abb.com> Hi, I was given an PDP-11/84 but I have no idea what OS it has installed. It says this when it starts up: Testing in progress - Please wait 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 starting system . __: ADA1: Load resident files A.DU0: BOOT from @ 526 fp ch Memory size 2048kBytes v06.12.413 VISONIK Building supervisory and managment system Landis & Gyr, Building Control __: INI0: Start of RSYS ! __:SU03: Update Common from SYSL ! __: SIX2: Dataset IM: Rebuild Index __: SIX2: Dataset REA: Rebuild Index __: SIX2: Dataset DM: Rebuild Index __: MELD: Init STA-Pointer 43252 __: MELD: Init ZMS-Pointer 10774 It has controlled the ventilation system on a hospital of that can be of any help. Anyone knows what OS this could be? And another thing. This machine had a Wangtek 5150EQ tape streamer. If I look at the cables it seems to be SCSI. And the controller for the streamer is not manufactured by DEC. (There's no DEC logo on it at least.) It says B 01079 ISS.4 1984 CTS-11 CKK 3890 on the board. Is this a SCSI controller board? Can I connect SCSI disks to it or is it a streamer only interface? There're some (bad quality) pictures of the board at http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum/pics/pdp11-board1.jpg There's a switch on the front of the CPU box that says "AUX ON | OFF". And on the back of the PSU there's a switch that says "remote | off | local". What function do they have? Thanks! -- Jorgen Pehrson jp at spektr.ludvika.se http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA00303 for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:48:25 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Mar 3 02:48:04 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:48:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some PDP11 Q.. In-Reply-To: <412565BB.0036DA5F.00@notestest.mail.abb.com> from "jorgen.pehrson@seinf.mail.abb.com" at Mar 2, 98 11:30:40 am Message-ID: <9803021648.AA23582@alph02.triumf.ca> > I was given an PDP-11/84 but I have no idea what OS it has installed. > __: ADA1: Load resident files > A.DU0: BOOT from @ 526 fp ch Memory size 2048kBytes v06.12.413 > __: INI0: Start of RSYS ! > __:SU03: Update Common from SYSL ! It looks like a version of RSTS/E to me (but that's mainly because I know it isn't RT-11 or RSX-11...) > And another thing. This machine had a Wangtek 5150EQ tape streamer. If I > look > at the cables it seems to be SCSI. And the controller for the streamer is > not manufactured > by DEC. (There's no DEC logo on it at least.) > It says B 01079 ISS.4 1984 CTS-11 CKK 3890 on the board. Is this a SCSI > controller board? It's almost certainly a QIC-02 controller, probably doing TS11 emulation. The sure way to test if its doing TS11 emulation or not is to drop into console ODT and see if there's something living at the TS11 CSRs at 17772520. > There's a switch on the front of the CPU box that says "AUX ON | OFF". And > on the back of > the PSU there's a switch that says "remote | off | local". What function do > they have? These control the 3-wire DEC power controller bus. Warren may want to correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't non-Unix issues like these best taken to forums such as vmsnet.pdp-11 and comp.os.rsts ? Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA03193 for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:28:13 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Mar 3 09:28:19 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:28:19 +1100 (EST) Subject: Full Steam Ahead with License In-Reply-To: <19980302152605.46176@sco.com> from Dion Johnson at "Mar 2, 98 03:26:05 pm" Message-ID: <199803022328.KAA08076@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Dion Johnson: > I am going to give myself the go-ahead and not bother those busy > legal folks any more. Goodo. > It looks like we may be able to permit credit cards and Intl Money Orders. > Are VISA and AMEX enough cards to support? I should know pretty soon on this. I suspect that would be fine. > > Someone asked if a password-protected ftp site would be ok? > > I thought that it might contravene the license. What's your opinion? > > As long as you know WHO has the password, that would be in accordance > with the license, as I read it. > -Dion That's excellent news, Dion. I'll cc this to the PUPS mailing list. Thanks again, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA03683 for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:54:41 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Tue Mar 3 11:54:30 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:24:30 +1030 Subject: Full Steam Ahead with License In-Reply-To: <199803022328.KAA08076@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:28:19AM +1100 References: <19980302152605.46176@sco.com> <199803022328.KAA08076@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980303122430.47237@freebie.lemis.com> On Tue, 3 March 1998 at 10:28:19 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Dion Johnson: >> I am going to give myself the go-ahead and not bother those busy >> legal folks any more. > > Goodo. Great news! >> It looks like we may be able to permit credit cards and Intl Money Orders. >> Are VISA and AMEX enough cards to support? I should know pretty soon on this. > > I suspect that would be fine. I would think that you should add MasterCard to that list, possibly instead of Amexco. Where do we go from here? Can we start to bombard you with license applications? Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA03728 for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:13:13 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Mar 3 12:13:33 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:13:33 +1100 (EST) Subject: Full Steam Ahead with License In-Reply-To: <19980303122430.47237@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 3, 98 12:24:30 pm" Message-ID: <199803030213.NAA08617@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Greg Lehey: > >> It looks like we may be able to permit credit cards and Intl Money Orders. > > I would think that you should add MasterCard to that list, possibly > instead of Amexco. > > Where do we go from here? Can we start to bombard [Dion] with > license applications? > Greg Dion sent me this suggestion: So I guess what we have is this: 1. Prospective licensee gets the license from [PUPS] website. 2. He signs and sends to SCO and sends his $100 to SF PO box. 3. Someone here [at SCO] lets [PUPS] know that he is a licensee. 4. [PUPS] can send him the source code (and charge a fee for that as you see fit). SCO wants the license on paper. I asked him for the final license in a form suitable for printing, e.g PostScript, PDF, Word format (gasp!). Greg's suggestion about MasterCard went to Dion as well. I guess we just have to sit back & wait until we get the word (and the final license) from Dion. As soon as I have all the details, there will be a description of the steps you need to perform in order to get a license placed on the PUPS home page. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA06396 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:32:22 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From neil at skatter.usask.ca Wed Mar 4 02:32:06 1998 From: neil at skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:32:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: Full Steam Ahead with License Message-ID: <199803031632.KAA00644@hydrus.USask.Ca> Another suggestion - keep a list of the licencees on the PUPS website. That way everyone would know who they could exchange software with. Most new stuff would probably end up on the site anyway, but during development it might be good to know. Neil Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA06544 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:08:49 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Mar 4 03:08:37 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:08:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Full Steam Ahead with License In-Reply-To: <199803031632.KAA00644@hydrus.USask.Ca> from "Neil Johnson" at Mar 3, 98 10:32:06 am Message-ID: <9803031708.AA24509@alph02.triumf.ca> > Another suggestion - keep a list of the licencees on the PUPS website. That > way everyone would know who they could exchange software with. Most new > stuff would probably end up on the site anyway, but during development > it might be good to know. As most all of the "new stuff" lately seems to be 2.11BSD-related, this brings up a (probably silly) question of mine: what's the relationship between the SCO license agreement and 2.9, 2.10, and 2.11BSD? Will the SCO license be functionally equivalent to a WE/AT&T source license (other than the per-machine limitations)? In other words, are the 2BSD distributions "SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMS" in the language of the agreement? Another stupid question: few of us (perhaps I'm the only one) have CD-ROM readers/writers attached to PDP-11's. Will those who have to transfer the source kit through a PC-clone or other Unix workstation have to license the intermediary machines with SCO? In other words, will the intermediary machines need to be registered as "DESIGNATED CPU"s? Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA07477 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:10:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 4 07:10:42 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:10:42 +1100 (EST) Subject: Full Steam Ahead with License In-Reply-To: <9803031708.AA24509@alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Mar 3, 98 09:08:37 am" Message-ID: <199803032110.IAA15973@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Tim Shoppa: > > Another suggestion - keep a list of the licencees on the PUPS website. That > > way everyone would know who they could exchange software with. Most new > > stuff would probably end up on the site anyway, but during development > > it might be good to know. > > As most all of the "new stuff" lately seems to be 2.11BSD-related, > this brings up a (probably silly) question of mine: what's the > relationship between the SCO license agreement and 2.9, 2.10, and 2.11BSD? > Will the SCO license be functionally equivalent to a WE/AT&T source > license (other than the per-machine limitations)? In other words, > are the 2BSD distributions "SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMS" in the language > of the agreement? 2BSDs are definitely SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMS as they are derived from the listed products (6th, 7th Edition and 32V) and are 16-bit operating systems. > Another stupid question: few of us (perhaps I'm the only one) have > CD-ROM readers/writers attached to PDP-11's. Will those who have to > transfer the source kit through a PC-clone or other Unix workstation > have to license the intermediary machines with SCO? In other words, > will the intermediary machines need to be registered as "DESIGNATED > CPU"s? My interpretation is this: DESIGNATED CPU means all CPUs licensed as such for a specific SOURCE CODE PRODUCT. SCO grants to LICENSEE a personal, nontransferable and nonexclusive right to use, in the AUTHORIZED COUNTRY, each SOURCE CODE PRODUCT identified in Section 3 of this Agreement, solely for personal use [..] and solely on or in conjunction with DESIGNATED CPUs [...]. Such right to use includes the right to modify such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT and to prepare DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT based on such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT, In my opinion, you can't USE the source code unless you have a CPU which run the machine code which is produced by the source code. I can't prepare a DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT if I don't have a PDP-11 or an emulator of such. I'd better check with Dion. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA07528 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:16:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 4 07:16:37 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:16:37 +1100 (EST) Subject: Full Steam Ahead with License In-Reply-To: <199803031632.KAA00644@hydrus.USask.Ca> from Neil Johnson at "Mar 3, 98 10:32:06 am" Message-ID: <199803032116.IAA16053@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Neil Johnson: > Another suggestion - keep a list of the licencees on the PUPS website. That > way everyone would know who they could exchange software with. Most new > stuff would probably end up on the site anyway, but during development > it might be good to know. This is a good idea, but I'd be happy for a licencee to opt out from the list if they so desired. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA07770 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:48:48 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 4 07:49:10 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:49:10 +1100 (EST) Subject: PUPS Volunteers list Message-ID: <199803032149.IAA17305@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, I've just created a SMALL mailing list for those people who have volunteered to write CD-ROMs, cut tapes etc. so we can distribute the software covered by the up-coming SCO source license. If you had volunteered but didn't receive any email about it today, please mail me back as I've missed you somehow. Still waiting on Dion re the final license document and the questions regarding Mastercard and `intermediate' CPUs. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA07931 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:20:44 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 4 08:21:10 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:21:10 +1100 (EST) Subject: From Dion: intermediate CPUs Message-ID: <199803032221.JAA17553@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> ----- Forwarded message from Dion Johnson ----- > > Will those who have to > > transfer the source kit through a PC-clone or other Unix workstation > > have to license the intermediary machines with SCO? In other words, > > will the intermediary machines need to be registered as "DESIGNATED > > CPU"s? > > I hope not! > Warren Right, that makes no sense at all. I suspect we (you and I) will want to whip up a sort of cover letter for the license that explains how to fill out the form and, as experience accumulates, a FAQ, etc. -Dion ----- End of forwarded message from Dion Johnson ----- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA07993 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:33:15 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 4 08:32:54 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:32:54 -0500 Subject: PUPS Volunteers list Message-ID: <199803032232.AA27033@world.std.com> < I've just created a SMALL mailing list for those people who have from Allison J Parent at "Mar 3, 98 05:32:54 pm" Message-ID: <199803032236.JAA17613@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Allison J Parent: > < I've just created a SMALL mailing list for those people who have > > The license is more concerned with source level code. What about those of > us that are interested in binaries only configured for a working system? You can pick up binaries for 5th, 6th and 7th Edition UNIX for free, as they are already covered by a SCO license. See http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/Licenses/v7_bin_license.txt If you also look at the PUPS Home Page http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS you can pick up RK05 disk images for all three edition, as part of Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA09888 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:54:30 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Mar 4 10:54:01 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:54:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some PDP11 Q.. In-Reply-To: <412565BB.0036DA5F.00@notestest.mail.abb.com> from "jorgen.pehrson@seinf.mail.abb.com" at Mar 2, 98 11:30:40 am Message-ID: <9803040054.AA29624@alph02.triumf.ca> > I was given an PDP-11/84 but I have no idea what OS it has installed. > ... > And another thing. This machine had a Wangtek 5150EQ tape streamer. If I > ... > There're some (bad quality) pictures of the board at > http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum/pics/pdp11-board1.jpg I finally got a chance to look at the picture; the board looks to me like an MTI MSV22, which is a Q-bus board. There's no way that it's a Unibus board. Are you sure you've got an 11/84 there, and not a 11/83? Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA10009 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:24:00 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From sms at moe.2bsd.com Wed Mar 4 11:17:18 1998 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:17:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: PUPS Volunteers list Message-ID: <199803040117.RAA13880@moe.2bsd.com> > From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) > Query: > > The license is more concerned with source level code. What about those of > us that are interested in binaries only configured for a working system? If you don't plan on staying current with parts that change then a binary only system might work. I can't see myself volunteering to build binaries (especially kernels) for varying configurations. The older, 'static' or frozen (for now), distributions can be run binary only - but the traditional method of updating systems was to either distribute diffs or replacement source modules. One main reason for this, especially in the kernel (but also some applications level stuff), is that the address space of a PDP-11 does not allow the luxury of including all ways of doing something. For example: the C library has to be build for either 'hosts' file or resolver routines - can't do both. So someone's running a binary only release but with a hosts file orientation. THey want updated binaries but all my systems are resolver based - building new binaries would be painful and time consuming. What happens when a system include file changes and all (or many) of the binaries in the system are affected - who's going to volunteer to recompile the system and make a new CD for the folks who don't want to maintain current sources? In the kernel arena it's even worse - who ever builds a kernel would have to request a 'config' file (do you want 'quotas' or not, do you want 'networking' and if so which ethernet card, do you want 1 or 2 MSCP controllers, and so on. Ick.) and custom build a kernel (can't include _all_ possible devices, etc because it just won't fit). I don't know about any one else but I'd rather not get into the providing custom kernels and binaries. From V5 on (I can't speak for earlier) you were expected to have a source license (which thanks to SCO's help we now will have) and install/maintain the system from those. Binary only setups were extremely uncommon (except in shops with lots of machines and they'd have a single 'master' source system and build and distribute from that). Configurability is very limited without sources and I'd have thought that everyone would be dancing with joy at being freed from binary only releases. As has been mentioned before there are binary only V6, V7, and V5 images already available without requiring a source license at all. There's no need to pay the minimal $100 for the upcoming license if all that's desired is a binary only system that's preconfigured for a limited set of devices. (re)configuration takes sources. So I guess the question is who's volunteering to build and distribute the binary only kits? Not me ;-) Steven Schultz Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA10998 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:37:18 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Wed Mar 4 15:37:06 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:07:06 +1030 Subject: PUPS Volunteers list In-Reply-To: <199803040117.RAA13880@moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 05:17:18PM -0800 References: <199803040117.RAA13880@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <19980304160706.51098@freebie.lemis.com> On Tue, 3 March 1998 at 17:17:18 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: >> From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) >> Query: >> >> The license is more concerned with source level code. What about those of >> us that are interested in binaries only configured for a working system? > > If you don't plan on staying current with parts that change then > a binary only system might work. I can't see myself volunteering > to build binaries (especially kernels) for varying configurations. > > (omitting detailled explanation) > > I > don't know about any one else but I'd rather not get into the > providing custom kernels and binaries. All good reasons. I suppose I could give access to an emulator over the net if anybody wants to do it themselves. This is not the way to go if you have your own machine with enough storage, but it might be if you're low on storage. > As has been mentioned before there are binary only V6, V7, and V5 > images already available without requiring a source license at > all. JOOI, where are these? Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA12363 for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:25:12 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 4 23:24:53 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:24:53 -0500 Subject: Binary-only PDP UNIX Message-ID: <199803041324.AA26659@world.std.com> Save for the rk05 image does not match my hardware (no rk05). Also sin <> they are disk images the target disk would have to have the same bad bl <> map or all havoc happens. < < have a single 'master' source system and build and distribute from < that). For me that would be perfectly useless as the only PDP-11 compuler is the DECUS-C and ti's far to minimal to crunch that. Chicken and egg. Right now I need the chicken on my 11/73 before I can consider the sources and then I have to configure enough storage to hold them. < that everyone would be dancing with joy at being freed from binary < only releases. I sorta am but for me $100 might as well be $10,000. < < As has been mentioned before there are binary only V6, V7, and V5 < images already available without requiring a source license at Their problem is from what I can tell is they are not runable on my 11/73 with the hardware I have. There is that little problem of transfering them (via RT-11?). My config, call it a sanity test to see if there is an existant binary I can run: 11/73 1mb non-pmi ram DLV11j RQDX3 rx33, rx52(x2) (rx53 available) RX02 RLV12 and one RL02 TK50 I can swap a DHV-11 for the DLV11j. I can put in 1 more meg of non-pmi ram. The TK50 is shared with a VAX. RT-11 V5 running. There are no RKxxs available. I expect I'll never be able to network the 11s I have, nor will I have adaquate resources (Disk) to compile the kernel. I will not discuss the 11/23 or the pro350 sitting next to them as it's been implied they could only run the oldest versions due to lack of I&D space. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 5 12:21:36 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:21:36 -0500 Subject: Binary-only PDP UNIX Message-ID: <199803050221.AA05673@world.std.com> suggest a way to get the images on to the RL02 using RT-11 I'm interest <> I can kermit the files from the PC so that step is not a problem. < Hi dear PUPS! It is about one week gone from the mome I got sufficiently powerful PDP-11. Before this I ran LSI-11/02 under RT-11 and couldn't think about unix. Those new machine is the main reason for joining to this list for me. It includes: KDF-11 CPU, RQDX3, DHQ11 8 line async option, TQK70 tape controller, 1.5Mbyte of memory etc. etc. I also have the complete BSD2.9 source distribution in tar file and like to run all of the above. Currently I've started KDF11 and it seems to be ok. Problems are: It has lots of switches (the same for MSV-11 boards and RQDX3 and all of that) and have very little docs about how to set it correctly. When I tried to bring up the KDF with memory at once KDF said : no memory :-] but it runs ok with little 32K memory board from LSI-11/2 ! Seems to me that my MSV-11 boards have wrong starting address settings or something... Same story with RQDX3 - currently I have no RDx disks so I thought that boot my system from RX50 is not a bad idea... I've plugged standard 5 inch floppy to RQDX3 sig. dist. connector labeled "RX50" and fired up the machine. Got nothing. I tried to investigate what happens to bootstrap. I've detected that during init of mscp controller it successfully undergoes steps 1 and 2 ( or maybe even 3) but in next step it returns 0 in SA and bootstrap waits for eternity when controller will enter next step... Looks like hardware fault, ha? Then I tried to check my TQK70 board. It had nothing connected to it, and I traced it's initialization sequence the same way. IT ALSO RETURNS ZERO in 3rd or 4th init step!. Can anyone help with the above? Sincerely yours - Stacy. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA19463 for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:38:35 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 5 21:38:38 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:38:38 GMT Subject: Hardware guru needed! In-Reply-To: Stacy Minkin "Hardware guru needed!" (Mar 5, 12:59) References: <199803050759.MAA00282@harrier.asiasys.com> Message-ID: <9803051138.ZM8072@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Mar 5, 12:59, Stacy Minkin wrote: > Currently I've started KDF11 and it seems to be ok. > Problems are: It has lots of switches (the same for MSV-11 boards and > RQDX3 and all of that) You probably don't need to change anyhing on the RQDX3 -- they're usually set up correctly (because they'e not often changed :-) > Same story with RQDX3 - currently I have no RDx disks so I thought > that boot my system from RX50 is not a bad idea... I've plugged > standard 5 inch floppy to RQDX3 sig. dist. connector labeled "RX50" > and fired up the machine. Got nothing. During init, the RQDX3 probes the disk(s) to see what's there. For a floppy, it checks for an RX50 by selecting the drive, finding track zero, and then switching the side select. On a real RX50, which actually behaves as two separate single-sided drives, this turns off the track zero signal; but not on any normal drive. There's a way to fool it, but you need to modify the drive or add a little circuitry. However, if you can find an RX33-compatible drive, that would be more useful anyway. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA20302 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 03:43:39 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Mar 6 02:25:43 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:25:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hardware guru needed! In-Reply-To: <199803050759.MAA00282@harrier.asiasys.com> from "Stacy Minkin" at Mar 5, 98 12:59:48 pm Message-ID: <9803051625.AA03469@alph02.triumf.ca> > Those new machine is the > main reason for joining to this list for me. > It includes: KDF-11 CPU, RQDX3, DHQ11 8 line async option, > TQK70 tape controller, 1.5Mbyte of memory etc. etc. > I also have the complete BSD2.9 source distribution > in tar file and like to run all of the above. Big problem: BSD2.9 doesn't support your disk (RQDX3) or tape (TQK70) controllers. I'd suggest BSD2.11, but it doesn't run on your CPU. > Currently I've started KDF11 and it seems to be ok. > Problems are: It has lots of switches (the same for MSV-11 boards and > RQDX3 and all of that) and have very little docs about > how to set it correctly. The best place to ask about these things would be the usenet newsgroup vmsnet.pdp-11. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA20695 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 05:24:04 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From sms at moe.2bsd.com Fri Mar 6 04:07:15 1998 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:07:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hardware guru needed! Message-ID: <199803051807.KAA22049@moe.2bsd.com> Hi - > From: Tim Shoppa > > Those new machine is the main reason for joining to this list for me. > > It includes: KDF-11 CPU, RQDX3, DHQ11 8 line async option, > > TQK70 tape controller, 1.5Mbyte of memory etc. etc. > > Big problem: BSD2.9 doesn't support your disk (RQDX3) or tape (TQK70) > controllers. I'd suggest BSD2.11, but it doesn't run on your CPU. That's almost two problems :-) It might be possible to retrofit [T]MSCP support into 2.9 but it would be a lot of work and a system with both MSCP and non-MSCP devices would be required. Swapping out the cpu card for a KDJ-11AB (M8192 if my memory hasn't completely faded) wouldn't be too expensive and would speed things up too. Hmmm, might need a MXV11 bootrom card. Perhaps a KDJ-11BB would be a better way to go. Steven Schultz Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA21408 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 07:25:23 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Mar 6 06:23:21 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:23:21 -0800 Subject: Just got V7 going on 11/83... Message-ID: <13337322993.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I just got V7 to load on my 11/83. Killes 2 hours playing wump. Who says you need grpahics for games? :) Anyway, I know there's no source liscense yet, but can I get someone to build a kernel for me? I wouldn't have to see source... It'd be real neat to hang this off a termserver and allow telnets... I'm gonna do that with my RSTS box real soon, the only limitation here is that V7 is only built with support for the console. I have the V7 image downloaded from DEC. I kermitted it to the 83, and did COPY v7.DSK/FILE DL0:/DEVICE It truncated something, but FSCK says the pack is fine. I have to load RT-11 from the MSCP, then say BOOT/FOR DL0: to start V7, though because if I tell the ROM to load DL0, it dies saying the disk isn't bootable. But at least it runs! ------- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21527 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:13:01 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From kolya at zepa.net Fri Mar 6 07:12:44 1998 From: kolya at zepa.net (Nickolai Zeldovich) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:12:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP Prompt? Message-ID: Hello, I'm trying to revive a PDP 11/04, but not having much luck at the moment.. I got a serial terminal hooked up to it, and upon bootup, it gives me the following on the display: 177777 177776 $ apparently, $ is some sort of a prompt. It only accepts two characters, and after, it seems, any pair of characters, will go on and give me a new prompt. Is this some sort of a ROM debugger? What can I tell it? I think I've tried almost every combination of 2 letters without any success.. Some info about the PDP: It's a 11/04, with a dual 8" floppy drive and some big cage made by MTS, with nothing in it but a large number of slots. Has some buttons saying 'STATION 1 DUMP', 'STATION 2 DUMP', and so on.. The floppy drive has two 8" floppies in it, one of them appears to be some sort of a system floppy, the other has no label. Does this look like even remotely salvageable? :) -- [ Nickolai Zeldovich // nickolai at zepa.net ] Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21757 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:52:44 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Mar 6 07:52:14 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:52:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP Prompt? In-Reply-To: from "Nickolai Zeldovich" at Mar 5, 98 04:12:44 pm Message-ID: <9803052152.AA01812@alph02.triumf.ca> > I'm trying to revive a PDP 11/04, but not having much luck at the moment.. > I got a serial terminal hooked up to it, and upon bootup, it gives me the > following on the display: > > 177777 177776 > $ > > apparently, $ is some sort of a prompt. It only accepts two characters, > and after, it seems, any pair of characters, will go on and give me a new > prompt. > > Is this some sort of a ROM debugger? What can I tell it? I think I've > tried almost every combination of 2 letters without any success.. Commands available at this prompt include: Lnnnnnn - to set an address E - to examine the address set with L Dnnnnnn - to deposit at an address set with L S - begin running at the loaded address The console ROM is very picky; all letters need to be in upper case, and you need to type and in exactly the right places. It's also very stupid, in that if you try to Examine or Deposit to a non-existent address, the only clue you get is that the RUN light on the goes out and you have restart it from the front. > It's a 11/04, with a dual 8" floppy drive and some big cage made by MTS, > with nothing in it but a large number of slots. Has some buttons saying > 'STATION 1 DUMP', 'STATION 2 DUMP', and so on.. The floppy drive has two > 8" floppies in it, one of them appears to be some sort of a system floppy, > the other has no label. > > Does this look like even remotely salvageable? :) It'll never run a modernish Unix, but it will run RT-11 just fine. Is the floppy controller a DEC RX211 (M8256) or RX11 (M7846) or some third-party clone? Are there any boot ROM's on the M9312? The RX01 boot ROM is 23-753A9, and the RX02 boot rom is 23-811A9. If you've got a third party RX clone controller, it may have the boot ROM on that board. Try examining addresses 173000, 173200, 173400, 173600, and 171000 to see if a boot ROM might be living at any of these addresses. As this is very non-Unix related, you might want to ask any other questions you have on a more general PDP-11 related forum, such as the Usenet newsgroup "vmsnet.pdp-11". Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26620 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:33:09 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From stacy at asia.uznet.net Fri Mar 6 15:34:38 1998 From: stacy at asia.uznet.net (Stacy Minkin) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:34:38 +0500 Subject: Hardware guru needed Message-ID: <199803060534.KAA00190@harrier.Uznet.NET> >What backplane? There are 16, 18 and 22 bit address backplanes and >using the smaller with the larger memory generally does not work and >give an address error. >I prefer to use part/model number like H9273(a backplane) or >M8259(memory). How actually distinguish these backplanes? I can check whether extended address lines are routed to slots, if it sufficient - ok. If not - are there more differencies? >What you need is a copy of the dec hand books that list all those details. >Any of the volumes from the mid to late 80s would help. No chance to get it in xUSSR! >Standard floppy? You can use a DEC RX50 or an RX33(teacfd55gfv). If >using the latter *all* of the jumper must be set up correctly in the >drive. The RX33 is a 1.2m 5.25" drive with speed select. You cannot >use a PC 5.25 360k drive or a 3.5" drive(actually it's possible but, >very non standard and unhelpful to you at this time). Which logical drive address should be set on floppy? >Unless the jumpers or switches on the RQDX3 were messed with the defalt >addresses and config are usually the way they are set and fit for use. The time I got RQDX3 it's address was set wrong. I've changed it immediately but there are lots of other switches... >For the RDxx you can use a ST225(rd31), st251(rd32), QUANTUM D540(rd52), >micropolus 1325(rd53) or MAXTOR2990(RD54) if they are formatted correctly. >or any other drive that matches the number of heads and cylinders of those >listed. Note those are all MFM type drives. Has anyone formatter? >Allison Stacy Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26655 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:48:40 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From stacy at asia.uznet.net Fri Mar 6 15:50:05 1998 From: stacy at asia.uznet.net (Stacy Minkin) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:50:05 +0500 Subject: hardware guru needed Message-ID: <199803060550.KAA00239@harrier.Uznet.NET> >Big problem: BSD2.9 doesn't support your disk (RQDX3) or tape (TQK70) >controllers. I'd suggest BSD2.11, but it doesn't run on your CPU. No problem. I can write this drivers. Pete Tornbull wrote about triggering "TRACK0" signal in responce to triggering "SIDE SEL". Is it the only difference? Stacy. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA29268 for pups-liszt; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 06:47:23 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se Sat Mar 7 05:48:24 1998 From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:48:24 +0100 (MET) Subject: Hardware guru needed In-Reply-To: <199803060534.KAA00190@harrier.Uznet.NET> Message-ID: About formatter.. The VAXstation 2000 can format iron beds. You plug in 'any' mfm drive and if the enter TEST 53. If the machine does not recognize the drive, it will prompt you for drive parameters. /Lars On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Stacy Minkin wrote: > > >What backplane? There are 16, 18 and 22 bit address backplanes and > >using the smaller with the larger memory generally does not work and > >give an address error. > > >I prefer to use part/model number like H9273(a backplane) or > >M8259(memory). > How actually distinguish these backplanes? > I can check whether extended address lines are routed to slots, if > it sufficient - ok. If not - are there more differencies? > > >What you need is a copy of the dec hand books that list all those details. > >Any of the volumes from the mid to late 80s would help. > > No chance to get it in xUSSR! > > >Standard floppy? You can use a DEC RX50 or an RX33(teacfd55gfv). If > >using the latter *all* of the jumper must be set up correctly in the > >drive. The RX33 is a 1.2m 5.25" drive with speed select. You cannot > >use a PC 5.25 360k drive or a 3.5" drive(actually it's possible but, > >very non standard and unhelpful to you at this time). > > Which logical drive address should be set on floppy? > > >Unless the jumpers or switches on the RQDX3 were messed with the defalt > >addresses and config are usually the way they are set and fit for use. > > The time I got RQDX3 it's address was set wrong. I've changed it immediately > but there are lots of other switches... > > >For the RDxx you can use a ST225(rd31), st251(rd32), QUANTUM D540(rd52), > >micropolus 1325(rd53) or MAXTOR2990(RD54) if they are formatted correctly. > >or any other drive that matches the number of heads and cylinders of those > >listed. Note those are all MFM type drives. > > Has anyone formatter? > > > >Allison > > Stacy > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05932 for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 06:36:05 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Mar 9 05:35:55 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:35:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source? In-Reply-To: from "Beastly Wolf" at Mar 6, 98 08:48:24 pm Message-ID: <9803081935.AA26778@alph02.triumf.ca> I've been sorting through some RL02's that came with a 11/23 system that I bought at a UBC SERF sale a year or so ago. On these RL02's there is at least one bootable V6 system, apparently generated specifically to be run on a 11/23. This ought to be of some interest to folks with real 11/23's with RL02 drives, as the other V6 systems that I'm aware of don't have RL02 handlers. Here's the question: this RL02 apparently has kernel sources in the directories /sys/ken and /sys/dmr. Does the presence of these files mean that I can only distribute images of this RL02 to those with source licenses? A non-legal question: the system identifies itself as "v6" when it boots, but there is a "v7.h" header file in the /sys directory. Is this maybe really a V7 system? Or maybe from an era when the trnasition from V6 to V7 was being made? Datestamps on the files are from 1982. For those who are listed, a log produced while running in single-user mode from a copy of the RL02 pack. Note that although the system was generated for a 11/23, it's running on a 11/73. The fact that it has more memory than "max" seems to confuse the system horribly when it goes into multi-user mode. Short of doing a lobotomy, is there any way to get around this? Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) b dl0 !unix unix v6 11/23 mem = 99 KW max = 63 # CD /SYS # LS V7.H FILE.H LIB1 SEG.H TTY.H BUF.H FILSYS.H LIB2 SGTTY.H USER.H CONF INO.H PARAM.H STAT.H CONF.H INODE.H PROC.H SYSTM.H DMR KEN REG.H TEXT.H # LS DMR KEN DMR: MAKEFILE DHFDM.O HT.O PIR.C TC.O AD.C DN.C IC.C PIR.O TM.C AD.O DN.O IC.O RF.C TM.O ADOLD.C DP.C IOCTL.C RF.O TTY.C BDREL.C DP.O IOCTL.O RK.C TTY.O BIO.C DUP.C IR.C RK.O TTY.S BIO.O DUP.O IR.O RL.C TTYI.C CAT.C DZ.C KL.C RL.O TTYI.O CAT.O DZ.O KL.O RM04.LAYOUT TTYINEW.C CR.C FAKE.C LP.C RP.C VS.C CR.O FAKE.O LP.O RP.O VS.O DC.C HM.C MEM.C RX2.C VT.C DC.O HM.O MEM.O RX2.O VT.O DH.C HP.C OLDRL.C STAT.C XP.C DH.O HP.O PARTAB.C STAT.O XP.O DHDM.C HS.C PARTAB.O SYS.C XY.C DHDM.O HS.O PC.C SYS.O XY.O DHFDM.C HT.C PC.O TC.C KEN: MAKEFILE IGET.S PIPE.C SUBR.C SYSENT.C ALLOC.C IOCTL.C PRF.C SYS1.C TEXT.C CLOCK.C MAIN.C RDWRI.C SYS2.C TRAP.C FIO.C MALLOC.C SIG.C SYS3.C TRAP.S IGET.C NAMI.C SLP.C SYS4.C # CD /USR # LS ADM HANNAH LEUNG OLD WHO BATCH HARDY LIB PROGM XLIB BIN INCLUDE LOG RAWICZ XYD EVANS INF LPD TMP YEUNG FORT KNOWLES MDEC UCB GAMES KUKAN NEEDHAM WEBB # LS GAMES ADVENT CHESS CUBIC TTT WUMP BJ CORE MOO TTT.K WUMPUS # LS UCB MAIL DRIBBLE.OUT GREP PIX SSP APROPOS EX HEAD PRINT STRINGS ASTAGS EX.OLD IUL PRINTENV TMP CKDIR EXPAND LAST PTAGS TOD CLEAR EYACC LOCK PX TRA CLOCK FLEECE LS PX34 TSET CR3 FMT.UCB MAKEWHATIS PXP UNTMP CTAGS FOLD MAN PXP34 VI CXREF FROM MKSTR PXREF W DAYTIME FTAGS MSGS RESET WHATIS DIFFDIR FUNNY NUM SEE WHEREIS DOUBLE GETNAME PI SETENV WHOAMI DRIBBLE GETS PI34 SOELIM XSTR # Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA06382 for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:37:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 9 09:38:15 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:38:15 +1100 (EST) Subject: FAQ of Archive of PDP-11 Unix Message-ID: <199803082338.KAA08954@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, I'm starting up a FAQ on the archive of PDP-11 Unix stuff and how to use it. What I've got so far is at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/faq1.html but not yet linked to the other pages. I'm happy to take other questions. I'm _very_ happy to get answers! Answers will have attributions of course. This is a back burner thing, but I'll go back through the mail archive and see what I can come up with. Also note: I will add a table of contents to the top at some stage. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06469 for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:17:58 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 9 10:18:50 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:18:50 +1100 (EST) Subject: 11/04 floppy problems In-Reply-To: from Nickolai Zeldovich at "Mar 8, 98 07:13:08 pm" Message-ID: <199803090018.LAA09059@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Nickolai Zeldovich: > I'm having a somewhat interesting problem with my PDP-11.. I'm trying to > boot a 11/04 from a 8" floppy drive, but DX, DX0, and DX1 all make it hang > up (RUN light goes out). Would you know what this would mean? I'm not sure > if this question is really appropriate for the list, sicne it's not > UNIX-related, and I've had little luck with newsgroups (seems my newsfeed > is quite flaky). > > -- [ Nickolai Zeldovich // nickolai at zepa.net ] I'm punting this to the mailing list ONLY because Nickolai's news access is limited. Can someone help him with the problem? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA07686 for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:10:09 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se Mon Mar 9 19:11:02 1998 From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:11:02 +0100 (MET) Subject: 11/04 floppy problems In-Reply-To: <199803090018.LAA09059@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: NIkolai! Your problem MIGHT be because somebody shuffled the cards for you! There are some classical caveats when it comes to the UNIBUS based system. a) There must be an uninterrupted grant chain all the way and no holes. b) There are two types of slots. DMA (also called a MUD or Modified Unibus Device) and NON DMA. Default is non DMA. To enable DMA you cut a strap on the wirewrapped backplane. (*cringe*)... This suggests that there are also two types of GRANT cards. One resembling a dual QBUS grant card but with green handles and one very small "playing card type" single card with no handle that can be (with force) inserted backwards and thus burn the bus. c) There must be a terminator card in the last position of the chain. I am at a customer site right now and do not have access to my library so I can not be more specific.. If you have any documentation handy, you should be able to use above information and find the exact information you need. If not, you should be able to locate the faulting device by "shortening" the bus. You start with CPU and a mem card and install the terminator directly after. See if you can deposit and examine stuff into RAM. Then put in the device directly after the last MEM card and test it and so forth. Eventually the system will fail and you have located the problem. Either remove the problem or get back to us. =) Note: With no documentation of the devices in question you have more problems. Some UNIBUSes are standard UNIBUSes. Others are special UNIBUSes for special device configurations. The UNIBUS PDP11 (or VAX) is a challange for the technically interested person. =) Oh yes... You can bypass devices by using the UNIBUS cable (a long stiff white flat cable with UNIBUS connectors in each end). Each UNIBUS sub bus is connected with the previous with a UNIBUS continuity card that consists of a short UNIBUS cable and two dual cards joined together to form one unit. If you want to bypass a device, take out the continuity from the start and end of the device, install a UNIBUS cable at the last position of the previous sub bus system and the first in the sub bus after the bypassed device. UNIBUS cables, continuity cards and grants (and also the terminator) all go in the same position across the bus and in no other place. One error here and it is BURN baby BURN! =/ /Lars On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Nickolai Zeldovich: > > I'm having a somewhat interesting problem with my PDP-11.. I'm trying to > > boot a 11/04 from a 8" floppy drive, but DX, DX0, and DX1 all make it hang > > up (RUN light goes out). Would you know what this would mean? I'm not sure > > if this question is really appropriate for the list, sicne it's not > > UNIX-related, and I've had little luck with newsgroups (seems my newsfeed > > is quite flaky). > > > > -- [ Nickolai Zeldovich // nickolai at zepa.net ] > > I'm punting this to the mailing list ONLY because Nickolai's news access > is limited. Can someone help him with the problem? > > Warren > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA08220 for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 23:45:12 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 9 22:45:16 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:45:16 GMT Subject: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source? In-Reply-To: Tim Shoppa "V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source?" (Mar 8, 11:35) References: <9803081935.AA26778@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <9803091245.ZM21377@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Mar 8, 11:35, Tim Shoppa wrote: > A non-legal question: the system identifies itself as "v6" when it > boots, but there is a "v7.h" header file in the /sys directory. > Is this maybe really a V7 system? Or maybe from an era when the > trnasition from V6 to V7 was being made? Datestamps on the files > are from 1982. That would cerainly put it well into the v7 era 9by thre years). But there were several differences, as I'm sure Tim knows, and some people didn't change. I'd guess this one has back-ported some v7 stuff onto what was otherwise a 'legacy' system. I think the RL02 drivers were written in Boston for v7 (or am I thinking of the RX02 driver?). Maybe v7.h has something to do with allowing this driver to be used? > Note that although the system was generated for a 11/23, it's > running on a 11/73. The fact that it has more memory than "max" seems > to confuse the system horribly when it goes into multi-user mode. Short > of doing a lobotomy, is there any way to get around this? I don't know, but if anyone else does, please tell! My 11/23 system has a kernel panic if I try to run it on an 11/73 (by swapping out the CPU board). > # LS GAMES > ADVENT CHESS CUBIC TTT WUMP > BJ CORE MOO TTT.K WUMPUS Interesting... ADVENT is missing from my v7. Any chance of a copy? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA09225 for pups-liszt; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:37:15 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Mar 10 03:37:04 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:37:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source? In-Reply-To: <9803091245.ZM21377@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Mar 9, 98 12:45:16 pm Message-ID: <9803091737.AA13243@alph02.triumf.ca> > That would cerainly put it well into the v7 era 9by thre years). But there > were several differences, as I'm sure Tim knows, and some people didn't change. > I'd guess this one has back-ported some v7 stuff onto what was otherwise a > 'legacy' system. > > I think the RL02 drivers were written in Boston for v7 (or am I thinking of the > RX02 driver?). Maybe v7.h has something to do with allowing this driver to be > used? Well, this is what V7.h says: #DEFINE V7CODE 7 /* IF COMPILING V7 COMPATIBLE CODE */ #DEFINE V7 (U.U_SYSTEM == V7CODE) and this is what a config file looks like: # CAT CONFIG.MLAB # CONFIGURATION FOR EXTENDED CARE PATHOLOGY SYSTEM WITH RL CONSOLE SYS MEM RL RX2 ROOT RL 0 SWAP RL 0 19000 1480 CPU 23 FPU DL 5 LTC It also looks like there's support in the sources for 11/34's and 11/45's, in addition to the 11/23: # CD CONF # LS ADEVS C.C DATA.S L-MLAB.S MAKE-MLAB BDEVS C.TM F23.O L.S MAKEFILE CDEVS C23.C F23.S L23.S MKCONF.C MAKEFILE CONFIG F45.S M23.S SYSFIX C-MLAB.C CONFIG.AWK KDWORD.S M34.S SYSFIX.C C-MLAB.O CONFIG.MLAB L-MLAB.O M45.S > > Note that although the system was generated for a 11/23, it's > > running on a 11/73. The fact that it has more memory than "max" seems > > to confuse the system horribly when it goes into multi-user mode. Short > > of doing a lobotomy, is there any way to get around this? > > I don't know, but if anyone else does, please tell! My 11/23 system has a > kernel panic if I try to run it on an 11/73 (by swapping out the CPU board). Maybe it is the CPU and not the memory that's causing the problem - I was probably a bit premature in jumping to the conculsion about the memory (perhaps my 2.9BSD experiences aren't applicable here.) > > # LS GAMES > > ADVENT CHESS CUBIC TTT WUMP > > BJ CORE MOO TTT.K WUMPUS > > Interesting... ADVENT is missing from my v7. Any chance of a copy? Sure. Warren's already moved the RL02 image to Boot_images in the PUPS archive, and at some point someone (me? Warren?) might find enough copious free time to strip out the sources. The big problem with this V6 system at the moment is that I can't find the 'mount' executable. I suspect that the system manager might have removed or (more likely) renamed it as a security precaution. (Security? Unix? well, you can try...) I'd like to mount one of the user disks on a second RL drive, but without 'mount' this is hard. Anyone have any ideas? "/dev/rl1" is real and works fine, as I can "od /dev/rl1" without a problem. # MOUNT /DEV/RL0 /MNT MOUNT NOT FOUND # CD / # LS -A . ETC MNT RX UNIX.RXRL .. FIXOWNER MNT1 SRC UNIX.TMP .MAIL HMBOOT MNT2 SYS USR .PROFILE JUNK NAMES TMP V7BOOT A.OUT LIB OLDUNIX UNIX X BIN LIB.OLD OLDUNIX.25.7 UNIX.JONES XLIB DEV LOOP RLUBOOT UNIX.MLAB # CAT .PROFILE V7=YES UMASK 002 HOME=\'PWD\' : MAIL=$HOME/.MAIL B=$HOME/BIN PATH=:$B:/BIN:/USR/BIN:/USR/BIN/V7:/USR/UCB PS1="$ " UPTIME : 'ECHO -N "FORTUNE: "; /USR/GAMES/FORTUNE' # LS /BIN A DB GREP NEWGRP SH.V7 ANVART DC HELP NM SH.YALE AR DCHECK ICHECK OAS SIZE AR-NEW DD IF OCC SORT AR-OLD DF KILL OD STRIP AS DISKCOPY L OLDCHEF STTY AT DISKCOPY.OLD LD OLS SU AWK DSW LINK OPR SUM BAS DU LIST OXY SYNC BYE DUMP LN PASSWD TIME CAT E LOGIN PGS TP CC ECHO LPR PR TP.OLD CDB ED LS PS TS CHGRP EXIT LST RESTOR TTY CHMOD F MAIL REW UNIQ CHOWN FC MAKE RM WHO CLRI FF MENU RMDIR WRITE CMP FILE MKDIR SH XTP CP FS MV SH.BELL XY CSH FTN NCC SH.DEFAULT DATE GOTO NCHECK SH.TEST # LS /USR/BIN ! DIFF GSI NCCC SPLIT STTY DIFFDIR HACK NICE SRCCOM AC DITTO HEAD NMS STARTLP ARCV DOSCVT HEX NOHUP STOP ASA DOSDT IGNORE NOPARITY STRINGS BANNER DOUBLE INDEX NROFF SYSMON BASIC DOWN INFO OFFLINE TABEXP BATCHCARDS DRIBBLE IUL ONLINE TABS BC DSTAT JOIN PARITY TB BCD DTC KWT PF TCON BCPIO DTCOPY LABELS PFE TEE BCPL DTFS LAST PFSH TOASA BEEP ENTER LC PFWAIT TOUCH C EOT LENGTH PG TR CAL ERASE LIBGEN PLOT TRIM CAP EXPAND LIBSORT PLOTTER TSET CCC FDB LINES PP TT CHDATE FED LINKER PPR TX4010 CHEF FERR LISP PROF TXOFF CHK FEXPR LOADVFU PT TXON CKDIR FIELDS LOC PWD TYPO CLEAR FILDES LOCK QP U2L COL FIND LONG RADPK UC COLS FIX LPI RC UNARCV COMM FIXLEN M2U READPPT V0CVT COST FMT M2U.OLD REFS V7CVT CPALL FMT_INDEX M6 ROFF VT125PLOT CPIO FMTCARD MAN RTDT WC CREF FMTINDEX MARK RTLD WHERE CRPOST FMTSORT MESG RULER WIPE CRYPT FOLD MNTBIN RUN WRAP CS FORM MPLOT RX2FMT XFS CS2 FSIZE MPLOT.HIDDEN RXFMT ZERO CTL GAMES MTS SA CVTRT GENDATE MTSFS SKULK DBL GRAB MVDIR SLEEP # LS /USR/BIN/V7 /USR/BIN/V7 NOT FOUND # LS /USR/UCB MAIL DRIBBLE.OUT GREP PIX SSP APROPOS EX HEAD PRINT STRINGS ASTAGS EX.OLD IUL PRINTENV TMP CKDIR EXPAND LAST PTAGS TOD CLEAR EYACC LOCK PX TRA CLOCK FLEECE LS PX34 TSET CR3 FMT.UCB MAKEWHATIS PXP UNTMP CTAGS FOLD MAN PXP34 VI CXREF FROM MKSTR PXREF W DAYTIME FTAGS MSGS RESET WHATIS DIFFDIR FUNNY NUM SEE WHEREIS DOUBLE GETNAME PI SETENV WHOAMI DRIBBLE GETS PI34 SOELIM XSTR Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA10124 for pups-liszt; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:24:59 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Mar 10 07:24:49 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:24:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source? In-Reply-To: <9803091737.AA13243@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 9, 98 09:37:04 am Message-ID: <9803092124.AA07849@alph02.triumf.ca> > The big problem with this V6 system at the moment is that I can't find > the 'mount' executable. Many thanks to Pete Turnbull, who pointed me towards /etc/mount. Some of the "user" disks appear to be corrupted. Anyone care to tell me where to find fsck? Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA10206 for pups-liszt; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:48:46 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From milov at toes.its.uwlax.edu Tue Mar 10 07:52:20 1998 From: milov at toes.its.uwlax.edu (Milo Velimirovic) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 98 15:52:20 -0600 Subject: Whither fsck (was: Re: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source?) References: <9803092124.AA07849@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <9803092152.AA02902@toes.its.uwlax.edu> Tim, fsck doesn't exist yet in the V6 world. you want icheck and dcheck... they need at least one argument which should be the name of a raw device containing the filesystem you want to check. (Using the block device anme will work but be much, much slower.) --- Milo Velimirovic Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030 Information Technology Services -- Network Services University of Wisconsin - La Crosse La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W Begin forwarded message: > >X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From: Tim Shoppa >Subject: Re: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source? >To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au >Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:24:49 -0800 (PST) >In-Reply-To: <9803091737.AA13243 at alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 9, 98 09:37:04 am >Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au > >> The big problem with this V6 system at the moment is that I can't find >> the 'mount' executable. > >Many thanks to Pete Turnbull, who pointed me towards /etc/mount. > >Some of the "user" disks appear to be corrupted. Anyone care to tell >me where to find fsck? > >Tim. > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA10827 for pups-liszt; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:39:57 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Mar 10 10:40:59 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:40:59 +1100 (EST) Subject: Just in from Dion Message-ID: <199803100040.LAA10668@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Guys, Just got this in from Dion re the license. No word as to date of availability yet, I did say `we're waiting....' though. I sent Dion a draft set of instructions on how to get the license. Part of his return email goes: > 4. For AUTHORIZED COUNTRY, I suggest writing: > > All countries not excluded by Section 5.2 Yes, very good. I have no idea how to find that damned govt list. I think our reference is out of date but who > 5. You need to list the DESIGNATED CPUs. [Do we? I can't see where > on the draft to fill this in] If you have PDP-11 hardware, > list the number and models of PDP-11s, e.g No, it doesnt say that. It says that on our request, you must furnish the list, but we dont demand it up front. In practice, I doubt we will ever ask anyone to furnish this, much less do an on-site visit. Of course, it might be a fun way to win a trip to Australia if I volunteer to go on a tour to see that our highly valuable intellectual property is being treated right... ;-) That sounds good to me. Warren From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 11 13:16:06 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:16:06 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 UNIX Src Licenses Available Message-ID: <199803110316.OAA14910@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Hello, you are receiving this mail for one of the following reasons: + you signed a petition urging SCO to make source licenses for PDP-11 UNIX available + your filled in a survey detailing what you wanted in such a source license + you are a member of the PUPS mailing list I am glad to announce that, as a result of the petition, SCO have made source licenses available for most versions of PDP-11 UNIX. The essential details of the license are: Covers research Editions 1 to 7, and 32V. Covers derived versions of UNIX which ran on PDP-11s. Specifically excludes System V onwards. Full source code, binaries and documentation. Personal, non-commercial use. Exchange of sources and modifications to other licensees. Non-disclosure to unlicensed people. The cost is US$100. Details on how to obtain the license are available at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/getlicense.html SCO will not ship any media with this license. The PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society has a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs and tapes in order to distribute the PUPS Archive of old Unix software to licensed people. Details about this archive are available at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pupsfaq.html We would like a few more licensed people to volunteer to create CD-ROMs and tapes, to take the load off the existing volunteers. Finally, none of this would have been possible without the immense support which we received from Dion Johnson within SCO. He battled with the legal eagles over a period of 18 months or so to make the license available. If you can, please send Dion a thank you card at the address The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. 400 Encinal Street Santa Cruz, CA 95061-1900 United States of America Attention: Dion Johnson This will be a surprise for him, but I'm sure he will appreciate your thanks. In turn, I would like to thank you all for your support. Without the signatures on the petition, none of this would have been possible. Warren Toomey wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA15239 for pups-liszt; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:50:50 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 11 13:52:01 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:52:01 +1100 (EST) Subject: SCO PDP-11 Licenses Available Message-ID: <199803110352.OAA15256@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Most of you on the PUPS mailing list should have received notice that SCO are now selling the PDP-11 Unix source licenses we have been waiting so long for. If not, details are on the PUPS web page, and at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/getlicense.html We only have 6 volunteers ready to write media (CDs, tapes) holding the archive of PDP-11 Unix material. Anybody else want to volunteer? SCO will let us set up password-protected ftp sites. I will set up the PUPS archive here for password-protected ftp. Would anybody else be prepared to mirror this and also provide password-protected ftp? I'd like one in the US and one in Europe. Cheers all, Warren From grog at lemis.com Wed Mar 11 16:07:35 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:37:35 +1030 Subject: Does anybody have an assembler in C? Message-ID: <19980311163735.37825@freebie.lemis.com> I'm trying to set up a cross-development environment for 2.11BSD (running under 4.4BSD), and I've run into trouble because the assembler's written in, well, assembler. It would be Real Convenient if I could find an assembler written in C. Does anybody know of one? Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA17387 for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 02:40:44 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca Thu Mar 12 01:29:23 1998 From: kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca (Ken Wellsch) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:29:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Does anybody have an assembler in C? In-Reply-To: <19980311163735.37825@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Mar 11, 98 04:37:35 pm Message-ID: <199803111529.KAA26566@math.uwaterloo.ca> Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader. I could swear the assember was in C - I am sure because I recall fighting with all the code to port it a long time ago to another UNIX box. Now I was the jerk that kept saying "gee that C compiler sure looks a lot like the V6/V7 C compiler" (yeah I know they are different - I never bothered to go into the details of precisely which one it matched more closely). If Tim does not still have the contents I know I've got it archived away and can fetch that part for you. -- Ken | From owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 11 01:16:07 1998 | | I'm trying to set up a cross-development environment for 2.11BSD | (running under 4.4BSD), and I've run into trouble because the | assembler's written in, well, assembler. It would be Real Convenient | if I could find an assembler written in C. Does anybody know of one? | | Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA17547 for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 03:36:44 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Mar 12 02:36:33 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:36:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Does anybody have an assembler in C? In-Reply-To: <199803111529.KAA26566@math.uwaterloo.ca> from "Ken Wellsch" at Mar 11, 98 10:29:23 am Message-ID: <9803111636.AA08101@alph02.triumf.ca> > Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle > that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader. Vaguely. I'll try to track down the exact reference - I'm not sure whether your referring to the DECUS C package or not. > code to port it a long time ago to another UNIX box. Now I was the jerk > that kept saying "gee that C compiler sure looks a lot like the V6/V7 > C compiler" (yeah I know they are different - I never bothered to go into > the details of precisely which one it matched more closely). I seem to recall that the DECUS C compiler is written in MACRO-11 assembly - and pretty much a straight translation of the V6/V7 C compiler - but with different run time libraries for RSX and RT-11. Does this ring a bell? Or am I completely on the wrong track? Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA18056 for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 05:21:10 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Mar 12 04:21:00 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:21:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Does anybody have an assembler in C? In-Reply-To: <9803111636.AA08101@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 11, 98 08:36:33 am Message-ID: <9803111821.AA19967@alph02.triumf.ca> > > Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle > > that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader. > > Vaguely. I'll try to track down the exact reference - I'm not > sure whether your referring to the DECUS C package or not. Taking a quick look at the DECUS C package, I see that isn't the answer. There's an "as"-style assembler there written in MACRO-11, though :-). I think you were referring to the XINU-11 package available by anonymous ftp from sunsite: ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu in particular, if you look in ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu/ unpacked/src/cmd/as11 you'll find the "as11" sources in C, specifically written for BSD4.3 on a VAX. I have to admit that I'm not fully aware of the copyrights regarding the XINU package. If research shows that this is freely distributable, is this something we'd want to distribute through the PUPS archive, Warren? Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA18071 for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 05:23:08 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca Thu Mar 12 04:22:47 1998 From: kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca (Ken Wellsch) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:22:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Does anybody have an assembler in C? In-Reply-To: <9803111636.AA08101@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 11, 98 08:36:33 am Message-ID: <199803111822.NAA31588@math.uwaterloo.ca> Tim, No, the DECUS C compiler is a very different kettle of fish. Sorry to be so vague - I can only go by memory now as all my archived info is on CD-ROM's at home. Back in the mid to late 80's a few folks made available a bundle put together by the folks at Purdue I think - I believe it was related to Dr. Comer (sp?) and the Xinu stuff - but this bundle was intended to provide a compiler environment on SunOS systems of the mid 80's to teach lower level system stuff - I've forgotten if it related to simulating an 11 or was instead just for a cross-compiler environment to build Xinu mini-kernels on faster platforms to then download to the LSI 11 testbed. One place I picked it up (via FTP) called it "sunchip.tar.Z" or similar, while another I think just called it "chip.tar.Z." I mentioned you only because I do remember grabbing it from your sunsite archive while you were still at Caltech and later sending e-mail WRT the licensing thing. -- Ken | From owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 11 11:45:28 1998 | | > Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle | > that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader. | | Vaguely. I'll try to track down the exact reference - I'm not | sure whether your referring to the DECUS C package or not. | | > code to port it a long time ago to another UNIX box. Now I was the jerk | > that kept saying "gee that C compiler sure looks a lot like the V6/V7 | > C compiler" (yeah I know they are different - I never bothered to go into | > the details of precisely which one it matched more closely). | | I seem to recall that the DECUS C compiler is written in MACRO-11 assembly - | and pretty much a straight translation of the V6/V7 C compiler - but | with different run time libraries for RSX and RT-11. Does | this ring a bell? Or am I completely on the wrong track? | | Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA18738 for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:24:26 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Thu Mar 12 06:25:03 1998 From: wkt at henry.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:25:03 +1100 (EST) Subject: Does anybody have an assembler in C? In-Reply-To: <9803111821.AA19967@alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Mar 11, 98 10:21:00 am" Message-ID: <199803112025.HAA16016@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Tim Shoppa: > I have to admit that I'm not fully aware of the copyrights regarding > the XINU package. If research shows that this is freely distributable, > is this something we'd want to distribute through the PUPS archive, > Warren? > > Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Xinu is freely distributable, as long as it's not sold as a competing product to Doug Comer's book. It's in the archive. Another solution for a assembler in C is some stuff I've got from a Russian, who `ported' either cc or pcc to a Sparc, as a cross-compiler. Greg, have a look in .miscfiles. If someone can make some order out of this, I'll put it in the archive. To the PUPS readers, there is a whole lot of stuff I've got but I haven't added into the PUPS ARchive as yet: + System V (SCO license doesn't include it) + copyright stuff I haven't cleared it's release yet + unsorted jumble Someone has to categorise this I could put the unsorted jumble into the PUPS Archive. Yes or no? P.S Woke up to a barrage of email today. Wading thru it.... Warren From grog at lemis.com Mon Mar 16 11:25:31 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:55:31 +1030 Subject: Where do you sign the SCO License agreement Message-ID: <19980316115531.52411@freebie.lemis.com> Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license agreement. Can anybody tell me? Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA11521 for pups-liszt; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:01:49 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 16 15:02:01 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:02:01 +1100 (EST) Subject: Where do you sign the SCO License agreement In-Reply-To: <19980316115531.52411@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 16, 98 11:55:31 am" Message-ID: <199803160502.QAA02064@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Greg Lehey: > Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US > customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license > agreement. Can anybody tell me? Should I put this in the getlicense web page? Warren F. The AUTHORIZED COUNTRY for this Agreement shall be ______________________. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties have caused this Agreement to be executed by their duly authorized representatives. LICENSEE: THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC. __________________________________ <--- Greg Lehey Mr Name Title __________________________________ <--- Your address Address __________________________________ Address __________________________________ Address __________________________________ By <---- Ignore, hangover from old AT&T licences where __________________________________ organisational license Print or Type Name and title (named above) is authorised by an individual (here) __________________________________ Phone and FAX, please <--- Phone, fax, email address __________________________________ Email address - required Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12553 for pups-liszt; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:40:49 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Mon Mar 16 15:40:15 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:10:15 +1030 Subject: Where do you sign the SCO License agreement In-Reply-To: <199803160502.QAA02064@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Mar 16, 1998 at 04:02:01PM +1100 References: <19980316115531.52411@freebie.lemis.com> <199803160502.QAA02064@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980316161015.07896@freebie.lemis.com> On Mon, 16 March 1998 at 16:02:01 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Greg Lehey: >> Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US >> customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license >> agreement. Can anybody tell me? > > Should I put this in the getlicense web page? A good idea, but... I hate to appear obtuse, but this doesn't tell me either. Are you saying I should sign where it says "By"? Greg > F. The AUTHORIZED COUNTRY for this Agreement shall be ______________________. > > IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties have caused this Agreement to be > executed by their duly authorized representatives. > > LICENSEE: THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC. > > __________________________________ <--- Greg Lehey Mr > Name Title > > __________________________________ <--- Your address > Address > > __________________________________ > Address > > __________________________________ > Address > > __________________________________ > By <---- Ignore, hangover from old > AT&T licences where > __________________________________ organisational license > Print or Type Name and title (named above) is authorised > by an individual (here) > __________________________________ > Phone and FAX, please <--- Phone, fax, email address > > __________________________________ > Email address - required Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12594 for pups-liszt; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:44:01 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 16 15:44:09 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:44:09 +1100 (EST) Subject: Where do you sign the SCO License agreement In-Reply-To: <19980316161015.07896@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 16, 98 04:10:15 pm" Message-ID: <199803160544.QAA02167@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Greg Lehey: > On Mon, 16 March 1998 at 16:02:01 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article by Greg Lehey: > >> Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US > >> customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license > >> agreement. Can anybody tell me? > > > > Should I put this in the getlicense web page? > > A good idea, but... > > I hate to appear obtuse, but this doesn't tell me either. Are you > saying I should sign where it says "By"? No, just fill in the top section. Leave the `by' section alone, as you ARE your own representative. The only time you'd fill out the bottom section is if you were buying a license for a company, e.g Sproggs Inc. 5 Looney road, SPOTSWOLD. NSW. 2001 by Warren Toomey etc etc etc. Hope this helps. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA12928 for pups-liszt; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:58:46 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From stacy at asia.uznet.net Mon Mar 16 17:00:16 1998 From: stacy at asia.uznet.net (Stacy Minkin) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:00:16 +0500 Subject: RQDX3 problems Message-ID: <199803160700.MAA00643@asia.Uznet.NET> Hi pdp people! Few days ago I wrote about my hardware problems and asked for hardware guru. Now I've solved some of them - I checked my backplane and it was 18-bits I wired insufficient A19-A21 signals and my CPU acessed memory and now it runs ok. But! I still do not know what happens to my RQDX3! I know that this question has little relation to UNIX and apologize for that. I hardly suspect circuitry fault but may be some other reasons. It looks like this: -My RQDX3 is now connected to simple 5-inch floppy drive when I power up the machine I see no activity on ANY pin of RQDX3 to RQDX SIG. DIST. 50-pin connector! I mean there is no triggering signals hence my floppy also does nothing. When I try to execute bootstrap or simply debug RQDX3 registers from console it looks like this: RESET CLR @#1772150 MOV #100000,@#1772152 ; controller passes INIT step 1 ; no ints enabled, no vector specified, ; UDA OWN bit set. Rings are zero length MOV #xxxxxx,@#1772152 ; controller passes INIT step 2 ; specifying low address bits MOV #0,@#1772152 ; controller passes INIT step 3 - specifying ; high address bits> Does anybody know what does it mean? I also have TMSCP TQK70 controller but no tape drive for it. When I try to run it there is absolutely similar situation - I think this happens each time [T]MSCP controller tries to powerup without any drives connected to it. So I'm looking for help from somebody who can give a hint about which signal should i check to assertain in absence of hardware fault. I have no drawings for RQDX3 neither user's guide. It can even be caused by wrong setting of switches/jumpers - I dont know. Stacy. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA14297 for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 02:41:35 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From djenner at halcyon.com Tue Mar 17 01:41:14 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:41:14 -0800 Subject: Where do you sign the SCO License agreement References: <199803160544.QAA02167@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <350D481A.DAA7B5A4@halcyon.com> Greg, Since none of the responses seem to really answer your question, here's what I did: I signed my name on the very first line where it says "Name". I then printed my name on the line where it says "Print or Type Name". If this is incorrect, I guess I'll get it back! Dave Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article by Greg Lehey: > > On Mon, 16 March 1998 at 16:02:01 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > > > In article by Greg Lehey: > > >> Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US > > >> customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license > > >> agreement. Can anybody tell me? > > > > > > Should I put this in the getlicense web page? > > > > A good idea, but... > > > > I hate to appear obtuse, but this doesn't tell me either. Are you > > saying I should sign where it says "By"? > > No, just fill in the top section. Leave the `by' section alone, as you > ARE your own representative. > > The only time you'd fill out the bottom section is if you were buying > a license for a company, e.g > > Sproggs Inc. > 5 Looney road, > SPOTSWOLD. NSW. 2001 > > by > > Warren Toomey > etc etc etc. > > Hope this helps. > > Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA15691 for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:45:45 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 17 08:45:19 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:45:19 -0500 Subject: V7 startup Message-ID: <199803162245.AA08767@world.std.com> Thanks to a member I now have V7 (supnik) Binary on RL02 to try out. Several questions: What hardware does it expect (besides RL02)? This is so I can configure the 11/73 or 11/23 as it expects. When I boot it on the 11/73 (1mb ram, RLV21, RX02, RQDX3(rd52/RX33), DLV11j currently) using RT-11 BOOT/FOREIGN I do get a "@" and it's not ODT. What commands do I issues to get going from there? Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA15720 for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:49:14 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Mar 17 08:49:32 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:49:32 +1100 (EST) Subject: V7 startup In-Reply-To: <199803162245.AA08767@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Mar 16, 98 05:45:19 pm" Message-ID: <199803162249.JAA02937@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Allison J Parent: > > Thanks to a member I now have V7 (supnik) Binary on RL02 to try out. > > Several questions: > > What hardware does it expect (besides RL02)? This is so I can configure > the 11/73 or 11/23 as it expects. Have a look at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pupsfaq.html > When I boot it on the 11/73 (1mb ram, RLV21, RX02, RQDX3(rd52/RX33), > DLV11j currently) using RT-11 BOOT/FOREIGN I do get a "@" and it's > not ODT. What commands do I issues to get going from there? Instructions are in Bob Supnik's emulator readme: 2.1.3 UNIX V7 UNIX V7 is contained on a single RL02 disk image. To boot UNIX: sim> set cpu 18b sim> set rl0 RL02 sim> att rl0 unix_v7_rl.dsk sim> boot rl0 @unix login: root password: pdp # ls -l Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA17274 for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:44:31 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 17 11:44:06 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:44:06 -0500 Subject: V7 startup Message-ID: <199803170144.AA16350@world.std.com> Thanks Warren, >>>>< @unix <<<<<<< THAT'S what I was trying to remember! Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17613 for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:06:14 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 17 13:05:52 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:05:52 -0500 Subject: V7 startup Message-ID: <199803170305.AA05406@world.std.com> Well v7 binary runs seemingly well on my 11/73 with the kitchen sink (the extra and unusable accouterments). It doesn't use much though! The Rl02 disk does have about 5mb space. One thing I'd like to do is have some additional storage other than the one RL02 drive I have. I figure that could easily be a RX02 but it's not obvious how to add that (to V7unix that is). The RQDX3/RD52 would be nice but I'll settle for a RX01/2. The other is the date is 1988... month and day are setable but year? Is there any way to get it to stay in 8/n/1 (my system(s) default) rather than 7/e/1. The last one bugged me some... there is no shutdown! To kill the system all I could do was make sure there weren't any excess processes running do a sync and hit restart. I assume this is ok as I use the same method for venix on the pro350, so far I haven't mashed that system. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17672 for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:15:10 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Mar 17 13:15:05 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:15:05 +1100 (EST) Subject: V7 startup In-Reply-To: <199803170305.AA05406@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Mar 16, 98 10:05:52 pm" Message-ID: <199803170315.OAA00560@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Allison J Parent: > One thing I'd like to do is have some additional storage other than the > one RL02 drive I have. I figure that could easily be a RX02 but it's not > obvious how to add that (to V7unix that is). The RQDX3/RD52 would be > nice but I'll settle for a RX01/2. The kernel you got probably doesn't have much else. I could build another kernel for you. Once you get the source license, you'll be able to do it youself! > The other is the date is 1988... month and day are setable but year? # man date DATE(1) DATE(1) NAME date - print and set the date SYNOPSIS date [ yymmddhhmm [ .ss ] ] DESCRIPTION If no argument is given, the current date and time are printed. If an argument is given, the current date is set. yy is the last two digits of the year; the first mm is the month number; dd is the day number in the month; hh is the hour number (24 hour system); the second mm is the minute number; .ss is optional and is the seconds. > Is there any way to get it to stay in 8/n/1 (my system(s) default) rather > than 7/e/1. What serial devices do you have? I think V7 expected hardwired things like KL-11s. Anyway, here's some of the stty(1) manual. SYNOPSIS stty [ option ... ] DESCRIPTION Stty sets certain I/O options on the current output termi- nal. With no argument, it reports the current settings of the options. The option strings are selected from the following set: even allow even parity -even disallow even parity odd allow odd parity -odd disallow odd parity 50 75 110 134 150 200 300 600 1200 1800 2400 4800 9600 exta extb Set terminal baud rate to the number given, if possible. (These are the speeds supported by the DH-11 interface). > The last one bugged me some... there is no shutdown! To kill the system > all I could do was make sure there weren't any excess processes running > do a sync and hit restart. I assume this is ok as I use the same method > for venix on the pro350, so far I haven't mashed that system. I think that's all you could do. Warren P.S Online mans at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/manpages.html Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA18069 for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:27:38 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 17 14:27:18 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:27:18 -0500 Subject: V7 startup Message-ID: <199803170427.AA08842@world.std.com> Message-ID: <9803171757.ZM23764@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Mar 16, 22:05, Allison J Parent wrote: > Subject: Re: V7 startup > > Well v7 binary runs seemingly well on my 11/73 with the kitchen sink > (the extra and unusable accouterments). It doesn't use much though! > The Rl02 disk does have about 5mb space. > > One thing I'd like to do is have some additional storage other than the > one RL02 drive I have. I figure that could easily be a RX02 but it's not > obvious how to add that (to V7unix that is). The RQDX3/RD52 would be > nice but I'll settle for a RX01/2. I think I have the RX driver somewhere. Might take a while to find, though. > The other is the date is 1988... month and day are setable but year? Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but ISTR that the dateset at startup does just set MM/DD HH/MM and relies on reading the year last written in a file somewhere. If you run 'date' as root once the system is up, you can set the year as well. > The last one bugged me some... there is no shutdown! To kill the system > all I could do was make sure there weren't any excess processes running > do a sync and hit restart. I assume this is ok as I use the same method > for venix on the pro350, so far I haven't mashed that system. Mine has a script which includes a umount (you won't strictly need that for a single drive) and a sync or two, and a little message. It might have a 'kill -1 1' to take it to single-user mode. Other than that, just halt it after a sync. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA20559 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:07:31 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 18 06:07:09 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:07:09 -0500 Subject: V7 startup Message-ID: <199803172007.AA14559@world.std.com> from Ken Wellsch at "Mar 17, 98 10:00:36 am" Message-ID: <199803172059.HAA01365@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Ken Wellsch: [ Ken confirms that the Xinu distribution for the PDP-11 includes the sunchip package, which is a C compiler and assembler, all written in C ] > Chip is the "Cornell Hypothetical Instructional Processor." It has a > PDP11-like architecture and supports virtual memory. > description can be found in the technical report: > > To run the simulator for this machine, you need a 4.1bsd (or newer) Unix > system. The distribution also contains a development environment for CHIP > containing a C compiler, assembler, loader and various other tools. To > run the development software, you currently need Digital Equipment Corp. > VAX computer. However, with minimal effort, all of this software should > be able to run on any host with UNIX. > > [...] > > ----------------------------------- end of README -------------------- > > P.S. As I suspected and feared, > > % diff -r Trees/V7/usr/src/cmd/c Xinu/src/cmd/cc11 > > indicates the C compiler provided in all these archives (Xinu, > CHIP, sunCHIP) are directly derived from the V6/V7 compiler. So is the DECUS C compiler, I hear. Is there any native C compiler for the PDP-11 which isn't derived from V6/V7? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21294 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:39:24 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 18 07:39:18 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:39:18 +1100 (EST) Subject: Sunchip compiler -- how to get it. In-Reply-To: <9803172136.AA03640@toes.its.uwlax.edu> from Milo Velimirovic at "Mar 17, 98 03:36:20 pm" Message-ID: <199803172139.IAA01634@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Milo Velimirovic: > Postscript to previous note, > > Where might I obtain the sunCHIP C compiler for comparison purposes? You need to fetch the Xinu distribution. I haven't got time to unpack the compiler sections right now, but you can get the whole tarball at ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/incoming/DISTR.lsi.tar.gz Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23166 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:41:54 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 18 08:41:55 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:41:55 +1100 (EST) Subject: Real Origin of the DECUS C Compiler? In-Reply-To: <199803172238.RAA24010@link.link-systems.com> from Ken Wellsch at "Mar 17, 98 05:38:12 pm" Message-ID: <199803172241.JAA01741@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Ken Wellsch: > I wasn't aware the DECUS C compiler (written in assembler) took anything > from V6 and/or V7 but I may well be wrong. The DECUS C stuff had a > special interest to me back in the Waterloo days because I believe > a former U of Waterloo person wrote it long ago... Hmm, that's what I'd heard. Perhaps the person who told me this was wrong. Can anybody tell us the correct origins of the DECUS C compiler? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA23726 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:23:13 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 18 11:22:59 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:22:59 +1100 (EST) Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses Message-ID: <199803180122.MAA02264@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11 licenses. The front says: I am LEGALLY CONTAMINATED by UNIX The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt. Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */ Sound good? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA23861 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:47:59 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Wed Mar 18 11:47:42 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:17:42 +1030 Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses In-Reply-To: <199803180122.MAA02264@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 12:22:59PM +1100 References: <199803180122.MAA02264@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980318121742.30724@freebie.lemis.com> On Wed, 18 March 1998 at 12:22:59 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11 > licenses. The front says: > > I am > LEGALLY > CONTAMINATED > by UNIX It's a nice start, but it doesn't really demonstrate the historical nature. > The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt. > Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */ That sounds good. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA24022 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:23:03 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From emu at ecubics.com Wed Mar 18 12:33:46 1998 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:33:46 -0700 Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses Message-ID: <19980318022245.AAA19033@1Cust202.tnt13.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi Warren ... ---------- > From: Warren Toomey > To: PDP Unix Preservation > Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses > Date: Tuesday, March 17, 1998 6:22 PM > > I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11 > licenses. The front says: > > I am > LEGALLY > CONTAMINATED > by UNIX > > The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt. > Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */ Do i need the SCO source license for this t-shirt ???? ;-)))) > > Sound good? > > yes Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA24057 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:42:36 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 18 12:42:38 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:42:38 +1100 (EST) Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses In-Reply-To: <19980318022245.AAA19033@1Cust202.tnt13.dfw5.da.uu.net> from emanuel stiebler at "Mar 17, 98 07:33:46 pm" Message-ID: <199803180242.NAA02386@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> > > I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11 > > licenses. The front says: > > > > I am > > LEGALLY > > CONTAMINATED > > by UNIX > > > > The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt. > > In the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */ > > Do i need the SCO source license for this t-shirt ???? ;-)))) Yes, of course you will. You will also have to kill anybody who attempts to read the back. Greg Lehey also commented: > It's a nice start, but it doesn't really demonstrate the historical nature. Hmm, how can we rectify this? How about a list of versions covered by the SCO License, arranged randomly around the `I am LEGALLY CONTAMINATED by Unix' on the front? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24130 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:07:12 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From joerg at krdl.org.sg Wed Mar 18 12:58:21 1998 From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg Micheel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:58:21 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Real Origin of the DECUS C Compiler? Message-ID: <199803180258.KAA02180@iti.gov.sg> # In article by Ken Wellsch: # > I wasn't aware the DECUS C compiler (written in assembler) took anything # > from V6 and/or V7 but I may well be wrong. The DECUS C stuff had a # > special interest to me back in the Waterloo days because I believe # > a former U of Waterloo person wrote it long ago... # # Hmm, that's what I'd heard. Perhaps the person who told me this was wrong. # Can anybody tell us the correct origins of the DECUS C compiler? One thing I can tell for sure: the DECUS C Compiler and the K&R CC are completely different in their origins. I'm about 90% sure the DECUS XCC is written in MACRO-11. The reason I'm so sure is because we were looking at a suitable C compiler to run on our 11/34 back in 1989 and we first mungled with the DECUS XCC. But this one had several deficiencies, among them I remember lack of blocks within functions, local variable initialization, difficulties with typedefs/structs. Maybe, Harti could tell more. We were looking into Johnson's pcc, but this one turned out to be a too big piece of work and to slow to run on our 128 KWord machine. Harti tried to port the Whitesmith CC from RT11, and it ran, but there were deficiencies with the RT emulation, so we dropped that. Finally, we took the K&R UNIX CC and reworked it so that it would pass the DECUS XCC to produce the stage one. We wrote our own unix assembler supporting the RSX object file format from scratch. Later, we recompiled the K&R CC on RSX with itself. This system became our workhorse for the next 2 years, the compiler is still amazingly fast, both in terms of runtime and the code being produced. (Quoted: Harti) So here are the 4 different original sources of C compilers for the 11, though, admittedly, 2 of them would run on DEC's original OS, not on UNIX, which I guess, makes them somewhat irrelevant to PUPS. Am I right here ? (Where do we draw the boundary ?) Joerg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24152 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:09:56 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From joerg at krdl.org.sg Wed Mar 18 13:00:59 1998 From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg Micheel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:00:59 +0800 (SGT) Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses Message-ID: <199803180300.LAA02265@iti.gov.sg> Warren writes: # I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11 # licenses. The front says: # # I am # LEGALLY # CONTAMINATED # by UNIX # # The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt. # Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */ Hey, hey! Gotta make a reference to the original artwork! :-) Joerg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24169 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:13:06 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 18 13:13:09 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:13:09 +1100 (EST) Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses In-Reply-To: <199803180300.LAA02265@iti.gov.sg> from Joerg Micheel at "Mar 18, 98 11:00:59 am" Message-ID: <199803180313.OAA02583@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Joerg Micheel: > Warren writes: > > # I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11 > # licenses. The front says: > # > # I am > # LEGALLY > # CONTAMINATED > # by UNIX > # > # The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt. > # Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */ > > Hey, hey! Gotta make a reference to the original artwork! :-) > > Joerg I should say (and Joerg reminds me) that he & Harti sent me a t-shirt a couple of years ago with a copy of boot/login sequence of V7 on the front, and the section of the V6 kernel with the comment above on the back. I wear it quite a bit, and my fiancee likes it too, but probably for other reasons. Thanks Joerg! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24256 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:49:47 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From joerg at krdl.org.sg Wed Mar 18 13:40:24 1998 From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg Micheel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:40:24 +0800 (SGT) Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses Message-ID: <199803180340.LAA04283@iti.gov.sg> # > # I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11 # > # licenses. The front says: # > # # > # I am # > # LEGALLY # > # CONTAMINATED # > # by UNIX # > # # > # The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt. # > # Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */ # > # > Hey, hey! Gotta make a reference to the original artwork! :-) # > # I should say (and Joerg reminds me) that he & Harti sent me a t-shirt # a couple of years ago with a copy of boot/login sequence of V7 on the # front, and the section of the V6 kernel with the comment above on the # back. I wear it quite a bit, and my fiancee likes it too, but probably # for other reasons. The /* You are not expected to understand this */ is also on the second page of Peter Salus' A Quater Century of UNIX, explaining a lot of folklore behind the UNIX history, including things like "a tape was found on the street to contain ...". The "contamination" term is (as far as I can tell) originated at Berkeley. When USL sued UCB for violating AT&T UNIX copyrights, it became apparent, that anyone ever having had a look at the original sources would be "infected" and be disallowed to distribute code that vaguely resembles anything in UNIX. Kirk McKusick then showed up with "Mentally contaminated" stickers for everyone attending the 4.4BSD Kernel Internals course at the Winter 1993 USENIX Conference, since he would present us - guess, what - source code! (of 4.4BSD) I still have the sticker somewhere in my collection. Joerg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA24298 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:07:20 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 18 14:07:23 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:07:23 +1100 (EST) Subject: Mental contamination (was t-shirts) In-Reply-To: <199803180340.LAA04283@iti.gov.sg> from Joerg Micheel at "Mar 18, 98 11:40:24 am" Message-ID: <199803180407.PAA02670@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Joerg Micheel: > The /* You are not expected to understand this */ is also on the second > page of Peter Salus' A Quater Century of UNIX, explaining a lot of folklore > behind the UNIX history, including things like "a tape was found on the > street to contain ...". Yes, I'd love to lay my hands on the `50 bugs' tape. For those who don't have Peter Salus' book (get out there & buy it!), this tape had fixes to V6, but the lawyers prevented Bell Labs from distributing it. So, someone `found' it lying in the street and that's how the patches found their way out of the Labs. >The "contamination" term is (as far as I can tell) originated at Berkeley. >Kirk McKusick showed up with "Mentally contaminated" stickers for everyone >attending the 4.4BSD Kernel Internals course at the Winter 1993 USENIX >Conference, since he would present us - guess, what - source code! (of 4.4BSD) > > I still have the sticker somewhere in my collection. I got one of the `Free the Berkeley 4.4' t-shirts. Good stuff. Kirk's the guy who is working on making the 4.xBSD releases available on CD. Please don't hassle him about it; I'll do that 8-) I've informed him that the SCO license covers 32V. Therefore, a lot of people will soon become eligible to receive 4.xBSD. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA24465 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:59:25 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 18 14:59:06 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:59:06 -0500 Subject: V7 startup Message-ID: <199803180459.AA20873@world.std.com> That reminds me. Why can't the 11/73 boot the unix RL pack directly from console boot dialog? The system boots RSTS and RT-11 packs. Is the boot block munged/missing? I might add it boots fine using boot/foreign from rt11. It's a curiousity as having RT on floppy or HD is not a big thing for me. But if it can be fixed that would be an improvement. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA26001 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 02:17:50 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Mar 19 01:17:18 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:17:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: V7 startup In-Reply-To: <199803180459.AA20873@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Mar 17, 98 11:59:06 pm Message-ID: <9803181517.AA25259@alph02.triumf.ca> > That reminds me. Why can't the 11/73 boot the unix RL pack directly from > console boot dialog? The system boots RSTS and RT-11 packs. Is the boot > block munged/missing? I might add it boots fine using boot/foreign from > rt11. The 11/73 firmware bootstrap expects the boot block to conform to certain standards specified by DEC in the early/mid-80's. In particular, the bootstrap must begin with a NOP, but there are some other requirements I don't recall at the moment. The toggle-in bootstraps that DEC supplied didn't do any such checks (who'd want to toggle tha check in everytime, anyway?), they just read block 0 to location 0 and jump to it (well, some also assume things about the SP going somewhere reasonable, and sometimes certain register locations set to certain things.) And RT-11's BOOT/FOR doesn't make any such checks, either. > It's a curiousity as having RT on floppy or HD is not a big thing for me. > But if it can be fixed that would be an improvement. You can either rewrite the 11/73 firmware to not do the check, or you can rewrite the V7 boot block so it conforms to DEC's standard. The RL02 is a particularly stupid device and requires an inordinately large bootstrap, so there may not be a lot of free room in the V7 boot block. You can also stick a "toggle-in" RL02 bootstrap into RAM via ODT and execute that. But I've decded that for me, the solution of RT's BOOT/FOR is the best, just as you seem to have :-). Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA28048 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:27:26 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Mar 19 12:27:07 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:27:07 +1100 (EST) Subject: What's TENIX?? In-Reply-To: <199803190143.CAA28649@pancake.pdc.kth.se> from Harald Barth at "Mar 19, 98 02:43:13 am" Message-ID: <199803190227.NAA04067@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Harald Barth: > One PDP-11 I have (and don't quite understand the hardware of) calls itself > Tektronix 8562. In that box (43x60x30cm) you find > LSI-11/73 (only part made by DIGITAL) > Controller with > 8'' floppy > 40Mb MFM disk with TENIX (binary of some kind of V7 Unix) > Controller with > 10 ttys Hmm, I haven't heard of Tenix before. I might punt this onto the mailing list to see if anybody can identify it. Any ideas, people?? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28280 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:44:01 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shsrms at erols.com Thu Mar 19 13:40:55 1998 From: shsrms at erols.com (Sheila H.//Elwood Blues) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:40:55 -0500 Subject: What's TENIX?? References: <199803190227.NAA04067@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <351093C7.5B96@erols.com> Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article by Harald Barth: > > One PDP-11 I have (and don't quite understand the hardware of) calls itself > > Tektronix 8562. In that box (43x60x30cm) you find > > LSI-11/73 (only part made by DIGITAL) > > Controller with > > 8'' floppy > > 40Mb MFM disk with TENIX (binary of some kind of V7 Unix) > > Controller with > > 10 ttys > > Hmm, I haven't heard of Tenix before. I might punt this onto the > mailing list to see if anybody can identify it. > > Any ideas, people?? > > Warren Tenex was a PDP10 (aka DECSystem 10/20) operating system. Some 10s had 11s as consoles. bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA03459 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 22:07:40 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From haba at pdc.kth.se Fri Mar 20 21:06:44 1998 From: haba at pdc.kth.se (Harald Barth) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:06:44 +0100 Subject: What's TNIX (Was: What's TENIX??) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:40:55 -0500" References: <351093C7.5B96@erols.com> Message-ID: <199803201106.MAA00394@pancake.pdc.kth.se> Hi, I wrote to Warren: > > > One PDP-11 I have (and don't quite understand the hardware of) calls itself > > > Tektronix 8562. In that box (43x60x30cm) you find > > > LSI-11/73 (only part made by DIGITAL) > > > Controller with > > > 8'' floppy > > > 40Mb MFM disk with TENIX (binary of some kind of V7 Unix) > > > Controller with > > > 10 ttys Warren wrote: > > Hmm, I haven't heard of Tenix before. I might punt this onto the > > mailing list to see if anybody can identify it. shsrms at erols.com wrote: > Tenex was a PDP10 (aka DECSystem 10/20) operating system. > Some 10s had 11s as consoles. The Tektronix manuals say "Tektronix Unix" and "TNIX". Looks like I've to boot the box and have a closer look at the actual software. I'm quite sure that it is some kind of v7. Unfortunately, it's just binaries. I don't think this should be confused with Tenex and/or PDP10s which had PDP11s and PDP8s as I/O processors in different places. Harald. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA08866 for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:45:22 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From haba at pdc.kth.se Sun Mar 22 11:44:17 1998 From: haba at pdc.kth.se (Harald Barth) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 02:44:17 +0100 Subject: Two different 2.11? Message-ID: <199803220144.CAA02181@pancake.pdc.kth.se> Started to get 2.11BSD working on emulator and 11/70. So far: Started emulator taken from: ftp://haba at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02/ Made kernel on emulator which supports the actual hardware: DELUA at non standard addr, RA81, RL02 Moved boot RL02 to 11/70 with RSTS/E Made bootable RA81 on 11/70 Untar:ed usr from ftp://haba at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD/file6.tar.gz ....And now the binaries from that tar file crash with "unknown system call" However, the binaries distributed in the disk images work. Any clues? Harald. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA09210 for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:23:37 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From sms at moe.2bsd.com Sun Mar 22 14:23:15 1998 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:23:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Two different 2.11? Message-ID: <199803220423.UAA08735@moe.2bsd.com> Greetings - No, there is only 1 2.11BSD (in the sense that there are NOT competing versions or distributions). What happened I believe is that the Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02 is older than the files in Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD. I have not looked at the Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02 files to determine when they were created (what patch level, etc.). On your RL02 system what do the first two or three lines of /VERSION? Anyhow, between the time that the 2.11_on_rl02 images were created (I did not create them) and December-1997/January-1998 several new system calls were created _AND_ the entire system was recompiled and relinked. That is why you can NOT use binaries from the Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD with earlier kernels. There is UPWARD compatibility (old binaries can run on new kernels) but not backwards compatibility. What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/ 2.11BSD. Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com > From: Harald Barth > > Started to get 2.11BSD working on emulator and 11/70. So far: > > Started emulator taken from: > ftp://haba at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02/ > > Made kernel on emulator which supports the actual hardware: > DELUA at non standard addr, RA81, RL02 > > Moved boot RL02 to 11/70 with RSTS/E > > Made bootable RA81 on 11/70 > > Untar:ed usr from > > ftp://haba at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD/file6.tar.gz > > ....And now the binaries from that tar file crash with "unknown system > call" However, the binaries distributed in the disk images work. Any > clues? > > Harald. > > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA11410 for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:54:56 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 23 07:55:25 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:55:25 +1100 (EST) Subject: SCO processing the new licenses Message-ID: <199803222155.IAA08277@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Hi all, Dion at SCO writes today: We have about a dozen licenses here, all paid up and signed off. So you should start receiving your PDP Unix licenses soon. He didn't say who the first dozen were. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12569 for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:02:33 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From edgee at cyberpass.net Mon Mar 23 12:02:10 1998 From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:02:10 -0400 Subject: Building sim tapes In-Reply-To: <199803220423.UAA08735@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <199803230302.WAA21783@renoir.op.net> > What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you > need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/ > 2.11BSD. I've looked everywhere I can think of on the PUPS site, but couldn't find 'makesimtape'. I couldn't find it among the source of Bob's emulator. Where can I get a copy of this program? Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA12805 for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:31:25 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 23 14:31:19 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:31:19 +1100 (EST) Subject: Building sim tapes In-Reply-To: <199803230302.WAA21783@renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Mar 22, 98 10:02:10 pm" Message-ID: <199803230431.PAA09463@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Ed G.: > > What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you > > need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/ > > 2.11BSD. > > I've looked everywhere I can think of on the PUPS site, but couldn't > find 'makesimtape'. I couldn't find it among the source of Bob's > emulator. Where can I get a copy of this program? I don't think Bob's latest emulator has got this. I've hacked at another program to do this, and I'll make it available tomorrow. Bob has asked me to submit this to him for inclusion in his simulator. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA12839 for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:39:21 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From sms at moe.2bsd.com Mon Mar 23 14:38:48 1998 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:38:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Building sim tapes Message-ID: <199803230438.UAA27736@moe.2bsd.com> > From: "Ed G." > > > What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you > > need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/ > > I've looked everywhere I can think of on the PUPS site, but couldn't > find 'makesimtape'. I couldn't find it among the source of Bob's > emulator. Where can I get a copy of this program? It's in /usr/src/sys/pdpstand. Look in file7.tar.gz from the 2.11 part of the Distributions and it should be somewhere in there. makesimtape is a hacked up version of 'maketape', the syntax and data file are the same so if you know how to use 'maketape' to create bootable tapes you're all set. The program is short enough I'll include it here. It should compile and run with minimal tweeking on any 'BSD'ish UNIX system. Steven ----------------------- /* * @(#)makesimtape.c 2.0 (2.11BSD) 1997/8/7 * Hacked 'maketape.c' to write a file in a format suitable for * use with Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator (V2.3) emulated tape * driver. * * NOTE: a PDP-11 has to flip the shorts within the long when writing out * the record size. Seems a PDP-11 is neither a little-endian * machine nor a big-endian one. */ #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #define MAXB 30 char buf[MAXB * 512]; char name[50]; long recsz, flipped, trl(); int blksz; int mt, fd, cnt; struct iovec iovec[3]; struct iovec tmark[2]; void usage(); main(argc, argv) int argc; char *argv[]; { int i, j = 0, k = 0, zero = 0; register char *outfile = NULL, *infile = NULL; FILE *mf; struct stat st; while ((i = getopt(argc, argv, "i:o:")) != EOF) { switch (i) { case 'o': outfile = optarg; break; case 'i': infile = optarg; break; default: usage(); /* NOTREACHED */ } } if (!outfile || !infile) usage(); /* NOTREACHED */ /* * Stat the outfile and make sure it either 1) Does not exist, or * 2) Exists but is a regular file. */ if (stat(outfile, &st) != -1 && !(S_ISREG(st.st_mode))) errx(1, "outfile must either not exist or be a regular file"); /* NOTREACHED */ mt = open(outfile, O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_TRUNC, 0600); if (mt < 0) err(1, "Can not create %s", outfile); /* NOTREACHED */ mf = fopen(infile, "r"); if (!mf) err(1, "Can not open %s", infile); /* NOTREACHED*/ tmark[0].iov_len = sizeof (long); tmark[0].iov_base = (char *)&zero; while (1) { if ((i = fscanf(mf, "%s %d", name, &blksz))== EOF) exit(0); if (i != 2) { fprintf(stderr,"Help! Scanf didn't read 2 things (%d)\n", i); exit(1); } if (blksz <= 0 || blksz > MAXB) { fprintf(stderr, "Block size %u is invalid\n", blksz); exit(1); } recsz = blksz * 512; /* convert to bytes */ iovec[0].iov_len = sizeof (recsz); #ifdef pdp11 iovec[0].iov_base = (char *)&flipped; #else iovec[0].iov_base = (char *)&recsz; #endif iovec[1].iov_len = (int)recsz; iovec[1].iov_base = buf; iovec[2].iov_len = iovec[0].iov_len; iovec[2].iov_base = iovec[0].iov_base; if (strcmp(name, "*") == 0) { if (writev(mt, tmark, 1) < 0) warn(1, "writev of pseudo tapemark failed"); k++; continue; } fd = open(name, 0); if (fd < 0) err(1, "Can't open %s for reading", name); /* NOTREACHED */ printf("%s: block %d, file %d\n", name, j, k); /* * we pad the last record with nulls * (instead of the bell std. of padding with trash). * this allows you to access text files on the * tape without garbage at the end of the file. * (note that there is no record length associated * with tape files) */ while ((cnt=read(fd, buf, (int)recsz)) == (int)recsz) { j++; #ifdef pdp11 flipped = trl(recsz); #endif if (writev(mt, iovec, 3) < 0) err(1, "writev #1"); /* NOTREACHED */ } if (cnt > 0) { j++; bzero(buf + cnt, (int)recsz - cnt); #ifdef pdp11 flipped = trl(recsz); #endif if (writev(mt, iovec, 3) < 0) err(1, "writev #2"); /* NOTREACHED */ } close(fd); } /* * Write two tape marks to simulate EOT */ writev(mt, tmark, 1); writev(mt, tmark, 1); } long trl(l) long l; { union { long l; short s[2]; } foo; register short x; foo.l = l; x = foo.s[0]; foo.s[0] = foo.s[1]; foo.s[1] = x; return(foo.l); } void usage() { fprintf(stderr, "usage: makesimtape -o outfilefile -i inputfile\n"); exit(1); } Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12877 for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:00:16 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 23 15:00:45 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:00:45 +1100 (EST) Subject: Where ISN'T the PUPS Archive (was building sim tapes) In-Reply-To: <199803230438.UAA27736@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Mar 22, 98 08:38:48 pm" Message-ID: <199803230500.QAA09569@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Steven M. Schultz: > > From: "Ed G." > > > > > What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you > > > need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/ > > > > I've looked everywhere I can think of on the PUPS site, but couldn't > > find 'makesimtape'. I couldn't find it among the source of Bob's > > emulator. Where can I get a copy of this program? > It's in /usr/src/sys/pdpstand. Look in file7.tar.gz from the 2.11 part > of the Distributions and it should be somewhere in there. Ah, I should point out to the readers of the mailing list: The PUPS Archive is NOT what you get by going to ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au as anonymous. Obviously, the archive has to be password protected, and so the anonymous ftp on Minnie isn't the Archive. I suspect Ed has been walking thru the anonymous area, which is why he could only find Bob Supnik's emulator. Anyway, Steven has provided a solution. Steven, could you put in #ifdefs for particular endian architectures??? Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA16339 for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:49:18 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From edgee at cyberpass.net Tue Mar 24 11:49:02 1998 From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:49:02 -0400 Subject: What's magtape good for anyway? Message-ID: <199803240249.VAA27961@renoir.op.net> > The program is short enough I'll include it here. It should compile > and run with minimal tweeking on any 'BSD'ish UNIX system. Thanks! I was just a plain old user during my college days, so I've never had much contact with magtape. But since magtape seems the easiest way to get data into and out of Bob Supnik's emulator, I've been fooling around with (simulated) tape a lot lately. To me (or maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about) it seems like magtape has a number of deficiencies: No filenames or directory structure: just an ordered series of bytes. Which would seem to imply that people must've used tar *a lot* to get these services. True? Padding of files to a multiple of the block size. Yuck! If I have a 312 byte file, I do not want to save it and then retrieve a (to my eyes anyway) different 512 byte file which has been padded with 200 bytes I didn't put there. Did this padding of files ever have any bad effects? So I was wondering, what *did* people use magtape for on these old Unix systems? Here are my guesses: Bad Old Days What we use now ================================ Archival storage (tape, CD-Roms, Zip drives, floppies) Application Software distribution (WWW, CD-Roms, ftp, email, floppies) System software distribution (CD-Roms, ftp) Backups (tape) Transfering a little data (Floppies, email). Transfering a lot of data (CD-Roms, Zip drives, ftp, tape) Have I left any significant use for tape out? Ed G. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA16572 for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:34:14 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Mar 24 14:34:54 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:34:54 +1100 (EST) Subject: What's magtape good for anyway? In-Reply-To: <199803240249.VAA27961@renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Mar 23, 98 09:49:02 pm" Message-ID: <199803240434.PAA11927@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Ed G.: > So I was wondering, what *did* people use magtape for on these old > Unix systems? Add another one: Xmas decorations. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA16598 for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:44:36 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Mar 24 14:45:16 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:45:16 +1100 (EST) Subject: Moving PDP-11 disk images to disk Message-ID: <199803240445.PAA11961@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, I've had a few people ask the question: I have a PDP-11, you have disk and tape images for old Unixes. How do get the images onto my actual disk/tape so I can install Unix? If anybody has sucessfully done: image -> tape -> install to disk -> working PDP-11 UNIX image -> install to disk -> working PDP-11 UNIX or any other variant, using any intermediate system (e.g KSERVE & RT-11), could they please drop me a note with some _details_ of what they did. I'd like to add this to the FAQ, as I suspect this is going to be a popular question as people receive their SCO UNIX licenses. Thanks in advance! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA16670 for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:59:01 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Mar 24 14:58:44 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:58:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: What's magtape good for anyway? In-Reply-To: <199803240249.VAA27961@renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at Mar 23, 98 09:49:02 pm Message-ID: <9803240458.AA14216@alph02.triumf.ca> > To me (or maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about) it seems > like magtape has a number of deficiencies: > > No filenames or directory structure: just an ordered series of > bytes. Which would seem to imply that people must've used tar *a lot* > to get these services. True? Most (non-Unix) minicomputer OS's had built-in support for ANSI labeled files, which do have filenames (and header bytes to specify record sizes and number of records). Folks who used Unix either made their own labeled tape facility (e.g. Ultrix and OSF/1 "ltf") or just used "dd" and a lot of hard work. The lack of a record structure that is built-in to the Unix filesystem really makes things like tape transfers quite irritating. The rest of the world isn't always just a stream of bytes! Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA17996 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 01:32:09 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca Wed Mar 25 00:31:48 1998 From: kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca (Ken Wellsch) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:31:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: What's magtape good for anyway? In-Reply-To: <9803240458.AA14216@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 23, 98 08:58:44 pm Message-ID: <199803241431.JAA09618@math.uwaterloo.ca> Now far for me to be defending 9-track tapes on UNIX systems, and I'm the first to admit I've not encountered *all* the various methods used everywhere to write tapes, but it took no time for me years ago to write a program that would pull blocks off a tape (by trying to read the max limit block size) and recording the actual block size read. Oddly enough when matched with a program that read this "raw format" info, it was sure trivial to reproduce the tape... but I'm sure I'm missing something. Luckily on my UNIX systems I am unencumbered by someone else's potentially proprietary or undocumented "file structure" - both by the system and by the media. -- Ken | From owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Mar 24 00:09:12 1998 | | Most (non-Unix) minicomputer OS's had built-in support for | ANSI labeled files, which do have filenames (and header bytes to | specify record sizes and number of records). Folks who used Unix | either made their own labeled tape facility (e.g. Ultrix and | OSF/1 "ltf") or just used "dd" and a lot of hard work. | | The lack of a record structure that is built-in to the Unix filesystem | really makes things like tape transfers quite irritating. The rest of | the world isn't always just a stream of bytes! | | Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA19183 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:18:41 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 25 07:18:39 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:18:39 +1100 (EST) Subject: More on Disk Images -> Disk Message-ID: <199803242118.IAA00742@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, I spent some time last night adding stuff to my virtual tape server. I have to test it today, but essentially: Box with serial line PDP-11 with tape server -----------> uncompress & dd + disk_image.Z (bootable) In other words, you can boot to an uncompressing dd, and suck over any disk image, without actually requiring an operating system. With this approach, you obtain an existing disk image that will work, or you use one of the PDP-11 emulators to create a disk image with a Unix kernel configured for your system. You then compress it, and suck/splat it to your real PDP-11 via the serial line. Now, what I've currently got will cope with -b12 compressed files. Can someone tell me if it would be feasible to fit a gunzip into 64K?? Even if it could only cope with gzip -1 files. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA19562 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:23:05 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 25 10:23:05 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:23:05 +1100 (EST) Subject: Compress Disk Image Install works Message-ID: <199803250023.LAA01449@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Well, I'm currently sucking a .Z compress RK05 disk image over a 9600 baud DL11 port; it seems to be working. Pity -b12 gives such low compression, but I guess any saving at 9600 baud is worth it. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA19586 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:30:26 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From sms at moe.2bsd.com Wed Mar 25 10:24:33 1998 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:24:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: More on Disk Images -> Disk Message-ID: <199803250024.QAA14701@moe.2bsd.com> Warren - >From: Warren Toomey > Now, what I've currently got will cope with -b12 compressed files. Can > someone tell me if it would be feasible to fit a gunzip into 64K?? Even > if it could only cope with gzip -1 files. If my understanding of 'gzip' is right then the alogrithm works on 32kb blocks of data and the '-N' level has little to do with the memory consumption. Rather, as the -1, ... -9 level increases the amount of work that gzip puts into the compression increases (the difference between -6 and -9 is only a few percent in final output size but the length of time taken is quite a bit higher). Of concern would be getting the gzip sources to compile with a non-ANSI compiler on a non-32bit machine (sizeof (long) == sizeof(int) is an endemic assumption I wager). Well, ok - there is the worry that you will grow old waiting for it to compress something ;-) Gzip is a lot more cpu intensive than compress. Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA19600 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:32:56 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 25 10:32:56 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:32:56 +1100 (EST) Subject: More on Disk Images -> Disk In-Reply-To: <199803250024.QAA14701@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Mar 24, 98 04:24:33 pm" Message-ID: <199803250032.LAA01502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Steven M. Schultz: > Warren - > > >From: Warren Toomey > > > Now, what I've currently got will cope with -b12 compressed files. Can > > someone tell me if it would be feasible to fit a gunzip into 64K?? Even > > if it could only cope with gzip -1 files. > > If my understanding of 'gzip' is right then the alogrithm works on > 32kb blocks of data and the '-N' level has little to do with the > memory consumption. Rather, as the -1, ... -9 level increases the > amount of work that gzip puts into the compression increases (the > difference between -6 and -9 is only a few percent in final output > size but the length of time taken is quite a bit higher). > > Of concern would be getting the gzip sources to compile with a non-ANSI > compiler on a non-32bit machine (sizeof (long) == sizeof(int) is an > endemic assumption I wager). Well, ok - there is the worry that > you will grow old waiting for it to compress something ;-) Gzip is a > lot more cpu intensive than compress. I'm only thinking of implementing gunzip on the PDP-11. I've got uncompress -b12 running standalone right now, but gunzip would be a big win: you gzip -9 on a 32-bit system (higher compression) and gunzip on the PDP-11. I just don't know if the gunzip would fit. Isn't there a gunzip for MS-DOS? Surely we could leverage something from it? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA20196 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:36:27 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 25 13:36:28 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:36:28 +1100 (EST) Subject: More on Disk Images -> Disk In-Reply-To: from Peter Chubb at "Mar 25, 98 02:32:00 pm" Message-ID: <199803250336.OAA02126@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Peter Chubb: > > In the Linux kernel, linux/lib/inflate.c and > arch/i386/boot/compressed/misc.c there's a set of gunzip routines that > could probably be adapted -- it runs in 16 bit mode (or ought > to). inflate.c is K&R C, so it should compile under V7; misc.c is > ANSI, but is small (just wrappers around gunzip) and in any case would > bneed changing to make a proper gunzip. > > I'll see what I can do. > Peter C. I think Steven described the main thing: will it run in 64K? I've popped some mail off to Jean-loup, who was involved with writing gzip. If we can get gunzip running in 64K on V7, I can then move it to a standalone program with minimal effort: the V7 standalone library provides open, close, read, write, printf, exit. Cheers! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20401 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:31:45 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Wed Mar 25 14:31:34 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:01:34 +1030 Subject: More on Disk Images -> Disk In-Reply-To: <199803250336.OAA02126@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 02:36:28PM +1100 References: <199803250336.OAA02126@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980325150133.00427@freebie.lemis.com> On Wed, 25 March 1998 at 14:36:28 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Peter Chubb: >> >> In the Linux kernel, linux/lib/inflate.c and >> arch/i386/boot/compressed/misc.c there's a set of gunzip routines that >> could probably be adapted -- it runs in 16 bit mode (or ought >> to). inflate.c is K&R C, so it should compile under V7; misc.c is >> ANSI, but is small (just wrappers around gunzip) and in any case would >> bneed changing to make a proper gunzip. >> >> I'll see what I can do. >> Peter C. > > I think Steven described the main thing: will it run in 64K? I've popped > some mail off to Jean-loup, who was involved with writing gzip. I've done a little bit of playing around with gzip 1.2.4. It works on 16 bit MS-DOS platforms with a bit of tweaking, and I got all modules to compile under 2.11BSD. Unfortunately, I ended up with a couple of undefined references on linking, and I haven't had time to look at it in more detail. On the whole, though, it looks as if it could be made to work, maybe with a little tweaking. > If we can get gunzip running in 64K on V7, I can then move it to a > standalone program with minimal effort: the V7 standalone library > provides open, close, read, write, printf, exit. Should be doable. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20463 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:49:13 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From edgee at cyberpass.net Wed Mar 25 13:48:33 1998 From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:48:33 -0400 Subject: What's magtape good for anyway? In-Reply-To: <9803240458.AA14216@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <199803240249.VAA27961@renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at Mar 23, 98 09:49:02 pm Message-ID: <199803250448.XAA23265@renoir.op.net> > OSF/1 "ltf") or just used "dd" and a lot of hard work. Is 'dd' Unix's primary tool for dealing with tape drives? > The lack of a record structure that is built-in to the Unix filesystem > really makes things like tape transfers quite irritating. The rest of > the world isn't always just a stream of bytes! There are certain areas of Unix that don't seem quite "done" to me. Printing comes to mind (compare Unix benign neglect with Windows' universal printer driver). My understanding is that the Unix philosophy was to provide raw and cooked drivers for all the devices. That way you could have access to the hardware if you needed it, or cushy operating system services if you didn't. Only the cooked mode for the tape devices doesn't seem to do much more than the raw mode. Seems to me that they could have easily added file system services for tape drives to the kernel, just like they did for hard disks. Was support for tape another area that the Wizzards at Bell Labs neglected in favor of other more urgent needs? Ed Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20456 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:49:02 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From edgee at cyberpass.net Wed Mar 25 13:48:33 1998 From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:48:33 -0400 Subject: Bug in Supnik's emulator? Message-ID: <199803250448.XAA23272@renoir.op.net> I don't know whether this is a bug in the factor (1) program (which seems unlikely) or the emulator. Can someone try factoring numbers on a real pdp-11 and tell me what happens? On the emulator when I type in a number, factor prints out the prime factors, followed by an infinite series of 17s. So, for example factor 6 2 3 17 17 .... I might add that I had bc running on the emulator calculate pi to 30 places and the results were identical with gnu bc on my linux box, right down to the last digit. Very impressive. Ed Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20530 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:10:24 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From sms at moe.2bsd.com Wed Mar 25 15:06:26 1998 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:06:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: More on Disk Images -> Disk Message-ID: <199803250506.VAA16340@moe.2bsd.com> Greg - > I've done a little bit of playing around with gzip 1.2.4. It works on Are gzip and gunzip comparable in size? I'm curious if the decompression is more 'address space' hungry than the act of compression (or vice-versa). > 16 bit MS-DOS platforms with a bit of tweaking, and I got all modules > to compile under 2.11BSD. Unfortunately, I ended up with a couple of > undefined references on linking, and I haven't had time to look at it Which symbols came up missing/undefined? > > If we can get gunzip running in 64K on V7, I can then move it to a > > Should be doable. It's actually 56kb or less - have to leave room for the stack and other data (strings, etc) Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20562 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:24:15 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Wed Mar 25 15:24:01 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:54:01 +1030 Subject: Bug in Supnik's emulator? In-Reply-To: <199803250448.XAA23272@renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Tue, Mar 24, 1998 at 11:48:33PM -0400 References: <199803250448.XAA23272@renoir.op.net> Message-ID: <19980325155401.32216@freebie.lemis.com> On Tue, 24 March 1998 at 23:48:33 -0400, Ed G. wrote: > I don't know whether this is a bug in the factor (1) program (which > seems unlikely) or the emulator. Can someone try factoring numbers on > a real pdp-11 and tell me what happens? > > On the emulator when I type in a number, factor prints out the > prime factors, followed by an infinite series of 17s. So, for > example > > factor 6 > 2 > 3 > 17 > 17 > .... I would be very surprised if this was a bug in the emulator. In any case, I tried it on the begemot emulator, running 2.11BSD: [55] root--> /usr/games/factor 6 2 3 [56] root--> Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20581 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:29:08 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Wed Mar 25 15:28:46 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:58:46 +1030 Subject: More on Disk Images -> Disk In-Reply-To: <199803250506.VAA16340@moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Tue, Mar 24, 1998 at 09:06:26PM -0800 References: <199803250506.VAA16340@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <19980325155846.17376@freebie.lemis.com> On Tue, 24 March 1998 at 21:06:26 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Greg - > >> I've done a little bit of playing around with gzip 1.2.4. It works on > > Are gzip and gunzip comparable in size? They're links to the same executable. > I'm curious if the > decompression is more 'address space' hungry than the act of > compression (or vice-versa). I haven't looked at the process images on systems on which they run. I suspect it wouldn't relate directly to 16 bit platforms anyway, since they have a slightly modified algorithm. >> 16 bit MS-DOS platforms with a bit of tweaking, and I got all modules >> to compile under 2.11BSD. Unfortunately, I ended up with a couple of >> undefined references on linking, and I haven't had time to look at it > > Which symbols came up missing/undefined? Various things defined in the program. They relate to the area in which I was tweaking. >>> If we can get gunzip running in 64K on V7, I can then move it to a >> >> Should be doable. > > It's actually 56kb or less - have to leave room for the stack and > other data (strings, etc) Yes, I understand. It may of course be that we need separate I and D. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20659 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:48:07 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Wed Mar 25 15:47:54 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:17:54 +1030 Subject: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple Message-ID: <19980325161754.63486@freebie.lemis.com> OK, I've found the problems with gzip, and they're not encouraging. It would appear that the undefined references are undefined because they refer to data which is too large. Here's the preprocessor output: uch inbuf[ 0x8000 + 64 ]; uch outbuf[ 16384 +2048 ]; ush d_buf[ 0x8000 ]; uch window[ 2*0x8000 ]; # 194 "gzip.c" ush prev[ 1<<(16-1)]; ush tab_prefix1[ 1<<(16-1)]; uch and ush are uchar and ushort respectively. Obviously there's no way of fitting this into a 64 kB address space. Possibly there's a way of shortening the buffers, but it would take more time than I have right now. Sorry for raising your hopes. There are other zip-compatible programs out there, such as unzip. Maybe somebody should look into them. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA20686 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:00:29 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From johnh at psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au Wed Mar 25 16:00:21 1998 From: johnh at psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:00:21 +1100 Subject: What's magtape good for anyway? Message-ID: <199803250600.RAA02807@psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> There were several tape handling programs that were standand from edition 5 onwards, including tap, tp, dtp, itp, tar and cpio. The only major tape standard around at the time (other than IBM) was ANSI, and several programs (not from Bell) were available to handle these. The ANSI tape structure was very inefficient with tape usage, since it used small record sizes and lots of tape marks. TAR did a better job (for Unix) and only lacked labels to name the tape. Putting tape filesystem handling into the kernel was definately against the original 'small is beautiful' philosophy. In any case, tape handling was very easy via the raw interface. As a side issue, Plan 9 has the ability to mount a tape as part of the namespace and only reads the file contents if the file is opened. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA20787 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:44:22 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From peterc at softway.com.au Wed Mar 25 17:43:00 1998 From: peterc at softway.com.au (Peter Chubb) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 17:43 +1000 Subject: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple In-Reply-To: <19980325161754.63486@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19980325161754.63486@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: >>>>> "Greg" == Greg Lehey writes: Greg> OK, I've found the problems with gzip, and they're not Greg> encouraging. It would appear that the undefined references are Greg> undefined because they refer to data which is too large. Here's Greg> the preprocessor output: Greg> uch inbuf[ 0x8000 + 64 ]; uch outbuf[ 16384 +2048 ]; ush Greg> d_buf[ 0x8000 ]; uch window[ 2*0x8000 ]; # 194 "gzip.c" You need to decrease the window size -- try setting it to 8k (instead of 32k) There should be a #define WSIZE 0x8000 somewhere. It may be worth playing with a decompress only version -- compression will take more space than decompression (you need two windows rather than one, for a start). inbuf can be smaller, too. Try 512 bytes to match the disc record size. Peter C Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA20848 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:11:48 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Wed Mar 25 17:11:36 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:41:36 +1030 Subject: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple In-Reply-To: ; from Peter Chubb on Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 05:43:00PM +1000 References: <19980325161754.63486@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <19980325174136.47943@freebie.lemis.com> On Wed, 25 March 1998 at 17:43:00 +1000, Peter Chubb wrote: >>>>>> "Greg" == Greg Lehey writes: > > Greg> OK, I've found the problems with gzip, and they're not > Greg> encouraging. It would appear that the undefined references are > Greg> undefined because they refer to data which is too large. Here's > Greg> the preprocessor output: > > Greg> uch inbuf[ 0x8000 + 64 ]; uch outbuf[ 16384 +2048 ]; ush > Greg> d_buf[ 0x8000 ]; uch window[ 2*0x8000 ]; # 194 "gzip.c" > > You need to decrease the window size -- try setting it to 8k (instead > of 32k) > > There should be a > #define WSIZE 0x8000 > somewhere. Correct. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that. Here's the definition: #ifndef WSIZE # define WSIZE 0x8000 /* window size--must be a power of two, and */ #endif /* at least 32K for zip's deflate method */ > It may be worth playing with a decompress only version -- compression > will take more space than decompression (you need two windows rather > than one, for a start). Yes, that was really what I was thinking of doing with unzip, rather than excising the unzip part from gunzip. > inbuf can be smaller, too. Try 512 bytes to match the disc record > size. Sure, once I get into serious modifications I can try a number of things. The trouble is, I just don't have the time. I thought it was worth 15 minutes to see what it would do, and the first attempts looked encouraging. Unfortunately, the second attempts didn't :-( Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA21748 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:20:28 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 25 23:12:01 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:12:01 GMT Subject: Bug in Supnik's emulator? In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey "Re: Bug in Supnik's emulator?" (Mar 25, 15:54) References: <199803250448.XAA23272@renoir.op.net> <19980325155401.32216@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <9803251312.ZM14182@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Mar 25, 15:54, Greg Lehey wrote: > Subject: Re: Bug in Supnik's emulator? > On Tue, 24 March 1998 at 23:48:33 -0400, Ed G. wrote: > > I don't know whether this is a bug in the factor (1) program (which > > seems unlikely) or the emulator. Can someone try factoring numbers on > > a real pdp-11 and tell me what happens? > > > > On the emulator when I type in a number, factor prints out the > > prime factors, followed by an infinite series of 17s. > I would be very surprised if this was a bug in the emulator. > In any case, I tried it on the begemot emulator, running 2.11BSD: > > [55] root--> /usr/games/factor 6 > 2 > 3 > [56] root--> On my PDP-11/23 running 7th Edition, factor works fine: $ factor 6 2 3 $ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA21903 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 01:33:32 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 26 00:33:18 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:33:18 -0500 Subject: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple Message-ID: <199803251433.AA22453@world.std.com> I find this situation funny as in the 8080/z80 (8 bit data 64kbyte address space) world there is LZH, Crunch, ARK, ARC, LBR... compressors and decompressors. Atleast a handful are written in C. Also PDP11 address space (no I&D) is 32kW... Instructions are always words so code can eat up a fair portion of the 64k bytes. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA21915 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 01:33:52 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 26 00:33:41 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:33:41 -0500 Subject: What's magtape good for anyway? Message-ID: <199803251433.AA22737@world.std.com> References: <199803190143.CAA28649@pancake.pdc.kth.se> <199803190227.NAA04067@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <199803251603.QAA13855@cara.aiai.ed.ac.uk> * Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Harald Barth: >> One PDP-11 I have (and don't quite understand the hardware of) calls itself >> Tektronix 8562. In that box (43x60x30cm) you find >> LSI-11/73 (only part made by DIGITAL) >> Controller with >> 8'' floppy >> 40Mb MFM disk with TENIX (binary of some kind of V7 Unix) >> Controller with >> 10 ttys > Hmm, I haven't heard of Tenix before. I might punt this onto the > mailing list to see if anybody can identify it. > Any ideas, people?? I remember this. Somewhere I worked as a student there was a tektronix box which supported some kind of microcontroller development system and/or and in-circuit emulator (for things like 8048 / 8051, though I think it had personality modules). It was a box which was known to be a PDP11, and had a couple of tek terminals on it, probably another box with stuff to support the emulators/PROM blowers & stuff, and it ran Tenix. I had an account on it, but all I knew then was that it was some kind of Unix. V7 sounds right -- perhaps it was Tek's OEMd version of this, with (I guess) support for whatever HW they had + some kind of development environment / x-assemblers & so on. The box just might still exist somewhere -- I made an attempt to get hold of it after I realised that PDP11s were cool, but it was hard because it had been worth a lot of money once and the accountants went all funny about it. --tim Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA22240 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 03:30:47 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From milov at toes.its.uwlax.edu Thu Mar 26 02:32:14 1998 From: milov at toes.its.uwlax.edu (Milo Velimirovic) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 10:32:14 -0600 Subject: oddball versions of Unix Message-ID: <9803251632.AA01056@toes.its.uwlax.edu> Hey, does anyone know if LSX is coverd by the SCO source license? And where to get sources for it? It was a version of Unix that I played with 15 years ago on an LSI-11 system with dual AED floppy drives... it was nice in that it woudl run on a pdp11 that was lacking memory mangaement i.e. a 28kWord machine.... Shake those gray cells friends and let's see if we can scare this one out of the woodwork... it would make a lot of ancient pdp11's much more useful. Regards, Milo --- Milo Velimirovic Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030 Information Technology Services -- Network Services University of Wisconsin - La Crosse La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA22307 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 03:52:27 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From haba at pdc.kth.se Thu Mar 26 02:51:55 1998 From: haba at pdc.kth.se (Harald Barth) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:51:55 +0100 Subject: What's TENIX?? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:03:59 GMT" References: <199803251603.QAA13855@cara.aiai.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199803251652.RAA23470@pancake.pdc.kth.se> > The box just might still exist somewhere -- I made an attempt to > get hold of it after I realised that PDP11s were cool, but it was hard > because it had been worth a lot of money once and the accountants went > all funny about it. Oh yes, very common scenario. Booted just for fun, see below. Harald. Welcome to Tnix Version 2.1 (rev b) on an 11/73 We recommend that you check the file system after TNIX has been restarted. ( Checking the file system takes about 5 minutes for a minimum system of files, longer for more files. ) Do you want to check the file system at this time? Enter y for yes, n for no, or question mark for more information : y The standard TNIX syschk command reports any problems with the file system, but does not fix them. The Standalone Utilities syschk command reports any problems with the file system, and queries you on how to fix the problems. Which file system checker? 1) standard TNIX syschk (reports problems) 2) Standalone Utilities syschk (fixes problems) Please enter a number: 1 checking /dev/rhd0: ...checking i-nodes and directory entries... ...checking tree structure... ...checking free list... free list is ok. rebuild free list? (y or n): n 75349 total blocks in filesystem 0 bad blocks (0 percent) 44112 free blocks (58 percent) 22491 free i-nodes (89 percent) TNIX shows the current date and time as Sat Mar 22 23:31:31 MET 1997 If date and time is already correct, press RETURN. Otherwise, you need to reenter the date. The format for a date entry is [dd-mmm-yy] hh:mm[:ss] Example: 22-jun-83 14:20 Please enter correct date: 25-mar-98 02:34 Wed Mar 25 02:34:51 MET 1998 Do you want to remain single user? (Enter y for yes, n for no, or question mark for more information) : y Now entering single-user mode. To exit from single-user mode, enter CTRL-D. # Do you want to remain single user? (Enter y for yes, n for no, or question mark for more information) : n When you see the login prompt, you can enter your login name, "manager", or "root". login: your login name Logs you into your personal account. The account must already have been created by the system manager. login: manager Displays information about common system manager tasks, and information about the "root" account. login: root Logs you in to the "root" account -- the account used to maintain system files. As root, you have full access to all files on the system, and no restrictions as to what you can do with the files. We recommend that you limit access to the root account, and that you assign a password to the root account. login: root Password: ******************************************************************************** * * * WELCOME TO TEKTRONIX * * * ******************************************************************************** USERS ON THE SYSTEM: ASSAR HABA MHO IF YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEMS, DO NOT ASK HABA IF HE CAN HELP YOU # ls -ltr total 499 -rw------- 1 root 58740 Apr 10 1984 tnix.old -rw------- 1 root 9852 Apr 10 1984 boot drwxr-xr-x11 bin 176 Apr 10 1984 tek -rw------- 1 root 57584 Apr 10 1984 TNIX.old -rw------- 1 root 58740 Jun 20 1985 tnix -rwx--x--x 1 root 57584 Nov 9 1985 TNIX drwxr-xr-x 2 bin 736 Sep 23 1986 lib -rw-r--r-- 1 root 1024 Oct 1 1986 .hp_memory drwxrwxrwx 2 root 176 Jan 30 1987 lost+found drwxr-xr-x 5 root 80 Sep 1 1992 home drwxr-xr-x 7 bin 4336 Sep 1 1992 bin drwxr-xr-x 2 root 928 Nov 5 1992 dev drwxr-xr-x 2 root 80 Nov 5 1992 mnt drwxrwxr-x 4 root 128 Apr 19 1993 vaxboot drwxr-xr-x 4 bin 480 Mar 25 02:36 etc drwxr-xr-x25 bin 416 Mar 25 02:36 usr drwxrwxrwx 2 root 64 Mar 25 02:36 tmp # shutdown Wait for the message on the system console saying it is all right to halt the system. System may now be safely powered down or rebooted Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA22899 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 06:45:51 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From milov at toes.its.uwlax.edu Thu Mar 26 05:47:24 1998 From: milov at toes.its.uwlax.edu (Milo Velimirovic) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 13:47:24 -0600 Subject: Follow-up: oddball versions of Unix References: <9803251632.AA01056@toes.its.uwlax.edu> Message-ID: <9803251947.AA01217@toes.its.uwlax.edu> Hi, The system I referred to below was described in: Lycklama, H. UNIX on a Microprocessor, Bell System Technical Journal, Vol. 57, No. 6, July-August 1978, pp. 2087-2101 --Milo Begin forwarded message: > >X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From: Milo Velimirovic >Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 10:32:14 -0600 >To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au >Subject: oddball versions of Unix >Reply-To: Milo_Velimirovic at uwlax.edu >Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au > >Hey, > >does anyone know if LSX is coverd by the SCO source license? And where to >get sources for it? It was a version of Unix that I played with 15 years ago >on an LSI-11 system with dual AED floppy drives... it was nice in that it >woudl run on a pdp11 that was lacking memory mangaement i.e. a 28kWord >machine.... > >Shake those gray cells friends and let's see if we can scare this one out of >the woodwork... it would make a lot of ancient pdp11's much more useful. > > >Regards, >Milo >--- >Milo Velimirovic >Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030 >Information Technology Services -- Network Services >University of Wisconsin - La Crosse >La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA23043 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:33:40 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Mar 26 06:33:46 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:33:46 +1100 (EST) Subject: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple In-Reply-To: <199803251433.AA22453@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Mar 25, 98 09:33:18 am" Message-ID: <199803252033.HAA03043@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Allison J Parent: > I find this situation funny as in the 8080/z80 (8 bit data 64kbyte address > space) world there is LZH, Crunch, ARK, ARC, LBR... compressors and > decompressors. Atleast a handful are written in C. > > Also PDP11 address space (no I&D) is 32kW... Instructions are always > words so code can eat up a fair portion of the 64k bytes. Well, I've got uncompress working, but I thought having gunzip would be good as it gives better compression results. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA23256 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:52:38 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From Chris.Drake at Corp.Sun.COM Thu Mar 26 07:50:07 1998 From: Chris.Drake at Corp.Sun.COM (Chris Drake) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:50:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Follow-up: oddball versions of Unix Message-ID: <199803252150.NAA10104@rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> >UNIX on a Microprocessor I did use something called "Mini-Unix" on a PDP-11/10, which was a single- address space machine. It worked, sort of, but had some problems - like, pipes were implemented as temporary files, so the shell broke things apart into individual sequential commands... and printing with lpr generally froze the machine up. There may have been later and better versions, though. (This was around 76/77, as I recall). - Chris Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA23267 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:54:39 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 26 07:54:11 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:54:11 -0500 Subject: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple Message-ID: <199803252154.AA26144@world.std.com> from Chris Drake at "Mar 25, 98 01:50:07 pm" Message-ID: <199803252155.IAA03217@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Chris Drake: > >UNIX on a Microprocessor > > I did use something called "Mini-Unix" on a PDP-11/10, which was a single- > address space machine. It worked, sort of, but had some problems - like, > pipes were implemented as temporary files, so the shell broke things apart > into individual sequential commands... and printing with lpr generally > froze the machine up. There may have been later and better versions, though. > (This was around 76/77, as I recall). Yep, it's in the archive! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23322 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:04:52 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 26 07:56:05 1998 From: robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:56:05 +0000 Subject: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple In-Reply-To: <199803252033.HAA03043@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <0S+aPCA11XG1EwK5@falstaf.demon.co.uk> In message <199803252033.HAA03043 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey writes >In article by Allison J Parent: >> I find this situation funny as in the 8080/z80 (8 bit data 64kbyte address >> space) world there is LZH, Crunch, ARK, ARC, LBR... compressors and >> decompressors. Atleast a handful are written in C. >> >> Also PDP11 address space (no I&D) is 32kW... Instructions are always >> words so code can eat up a fair portion of the 64k bytes. > >Well, I've got uncompress working, but I thought having gunzip would >be good as it gives better compression results. > > Warren I looked at this several years ago and gave up at the save point as Warren. I looked at compress using 16 bits and hit the same sort of constructs. After a bit of thinking I believe there may be a way round it but at the time I didn't know the algorithms used in compress or gzip so didn't try playing. The problem is that the compression algorithm needs a 64k space to do all of its sums in, don't ask me why, if someone could tell us the algorithm them I would understand a lot better. These are defined as 64k address spaces which the data page isn't holding cos they don't fit. If you write a virtual mem system then this will work. This causes problems in the standalone world obviously but steve wrote a vm lookalike for 2.11 that uses files, yes a lump of real mem aka the partition concept with movable windows in RSX would be nice but we can't have everything, but compress and maybe gip should be able to be cooked into using such a system for vm. This would be slow but what are we after?, an all singing all dancing system or something that would work in the background whilst we get a beer and wait for the system to install?. Cheers Robin Robin Birch robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23342 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:07:50 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Mar 26 08:07:35 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:07:35 +1100 (EST) Subject: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple In-Reply-To: <0S+aPCA11XG1EwK5@falstaf.demon.co.uk> from Robin Birch at "Mar 25, 98 09:56:05 pm" Message-ID: <199803252207.JAA03305@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Robin Birch: [ not being able to run gzip on a PDP-11 ] > This would be slow but > what are we after?, an all singing all dancing system or something that > would work in the background whilst we get a beer and wait for the > system to install?. You're right I think. At least compress -b12 works, and as you say, a bit of extra wait isn't going to hurt too much. Peter Chubb seems interested in fitting gunzip into 64K. I'll see how he goes with it. Thanks all for your comments, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23554 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:29:54 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Mar 26 08:30:00 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:30:00 +1100 (EST) Subject: Available: tool to write disk images to PDP-11 Message-ID: <199803252230.JAA03395@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Ok, I debugged the thing yesterday, it works well. If you want to write a PDP-11 disk image to a real PDP-11, you might like to look in: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver and at the file zcat.README there. Current disk and tapes supported: hp: RP04, RP05 and RP06 disks. rp: RP03 disks. rk: RK05 disks. rl: RL01 and RL02 disks. ht: TU16 or TE16 tape drive. tm: TU10 tape drive. vt: The Virtual Tape drive. You can download from any tape to any disk. The Virtual Tape drive allows you to download the image over a KL11 at 9,600 baud. Any type of disk image can be downloaded, not just Unix ones. You will need compress(1). And a bit of patience. Let's hope someone tries this out! Ciao, Warren P.S I plan on migrating to the 2.11BSD standalone stuff, which supports more tape drives and disk drives. Sometime. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24607 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:21:30 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From peterc at softway.com.au Thu Mar 26 14:21:00 1998 From: peterc at softway.com.au (Peter Chubb) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 14:21 +1000 Subject: Progress on zcat Message-ID: Well... my cut-down zcat now works under Linux, and compiles and links cleanly under v7 on the simulator. But the semantics are wrong! Big problem is the lack of unsigned char and unsigned long types. I'm gradually going through and finding places where left shifts, or sign extensions are happening, and masking them explicitly. I'm almost sure that at UNSW we had a C compiler on Unix V7 that had an unsigned long data type... Anyway, there's progress. And if it all goes OK, then on machines that have separate I&D spaces, the resulting zcat will be compatible with gzip everywhere. Peter C Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA29445 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:51:52 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From edgee at cyberpass.net Fri Mar 27 12:51:31 1998 From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:51:31 -0400 Subject: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! Message-ID: <199803270351.WAA01451@renoir.op.net> As you know, I wrote this list recently about a bug in Bob Supnik's emulator which manifests when running factor (1). I've had a chance to do some further research on this, and it seems to me that the bug is definitely in Supnik's emulator. What do you all think? Am I onto something? If so, what part of Supnik's code is probably to blame? Here's what I've learned so far: 1. factor on Supnik's emulator fails most of the time (see below for examples). 2. factor works fine on Ersatz-11 2. On the off-chance that I munged the disk images and somehow corrupted factor, I reextracted virgin images from the tar ball. factor still fails while running on Supnik's emulator. 3. Peter Turnbull wrote me that factor running on under uv7 on his PDP-11/23 runs the test case 'factor 6' without error. Here's what factor does on Supnik's emulator for a variety of values: factor 6 2 3 17 17 etc. factor 257 263 263 etc. factor 263 269 269 etc. factor 1009 (works correctly) 1009 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA29824 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:28:35 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Mar 27 16:28:52 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 06:28:52 GMT Subject: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! In-Reply-To: "Ed G." "Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!" (Mar 26, 22:51) References: <199803270351.WAA01451@renoir.op.net> Message-ID: <9803270628.ZM27283@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Hi, Ed. > I've had a chance to do some further research on this, and it seems > to me that the bug is definitely in Supnik's emulator. What do you > all think? Am I onto something? If so, what part of Supnik's code > is probably to blame? Interesting... did you use the same binary on both Bob's emulator and Ersatz? > 3. Peter Turnbull wrote me that factor running on under uv7 on his > PDP-11/23 runs the test case 'factor 6' without error. Ah, I meant to mail that to the list. No matter, it got to where it was most needed, obviously :-) I'd suggest you recompile factor if you have the source, but add some debugging. If you can't do that, you could try running it with adb (the debugger, man 1 adb for details). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA02487 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:50:54 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Sat Mar 28 10:50:54 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:50:54 +1100 (EST) Subject: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! In-Reply-To: <9803270628.ZM27283@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "Mar 27, 98 06:28:52 am" Message-ID: <199803280050.LAA05410@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Pete Turnbull: > Hi, Ed. > > > I've had a chance to do some further research on this, and it seems > > to me that the bug is definitely in Supnik's emulator. What do you > > all think? Am I onto something? If so, what part of Supnik's code > > is probably to blame? > > Interesting... did you use the same binary on both Bob's emulator and Ersatz? > > > 3. Peter Turnbull wrote me that factor running on under uv7 on his > > PDP-11/23 runs the test case 'factor 6' without error. > I'd suggest you recompile factor if you have the source, but add some > debugging. If you can't do that, you could try running it with adb (the > debugger, man 1 adb for details). I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that there is a bug. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA05778 for pups-liszt; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:52:20 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Sun Mar 29 09:41:33 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:41:33 +1000 (EST) Subject: Digest of PUPS mail available Message-ID: <199803282341.JAA06110@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> The PUPS mailing list seems to be getting busier. For those `lurkers' who want to follow the list, but don't want to be pestered by incoming email every 10 minutes, I've set up a digest form of the list. The digest will be sent out every Monday and Thursday, or if the incoming e-mail exceeds 40K in total. To get the digest version, and to unsubscribe from the normal list, send e-mail to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au with the commands in the message body: subscribe pups-digest unsubscribe pups You still need to send mail to pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au for it to go to the PUPS list and to be included in the digest. Warren From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 1 01:08:24 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:08:24 -0500 Subject: That RL02 blues. Message-ID: <199802281508.AA24580@world.std.com> I've had an RL02 working on an 11/750 running BSD4.3. The RL11 controller only has 16 words of buffer memory, so you've got to make sure that other devices don't hog the bus too much. In particular, UDAs should have their DMA burst set to something like 1. Setting it much higher causes the RL11 to get data lates as its silo overflows before it gets access to the bus to do DMA. However, the RLV12 seems to have a much bigger silo (256 bytes?), so this should't be a problem for it. The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems &c. If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last device on the bus. James Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA23015 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:59:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Mar 1 03:58:27 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:58:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: RL02 meets BSD In-Reply-To: <199802281618.QAA20434@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> from "J Lothian" at Feb 28, 98 04:18:57 pm Message-ID: <9802281758.AA14586@alph02.triumf.ca> > The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems > &c. This certainly seems likely to me, too. What cards are in the machine, and in which slots? What are the switches on the RLV12 set to? > If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind > that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last > device on the bus. I think you're thinking of the RQDX1/2 here. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA24673 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:46:02 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Mar 1 14:45:51 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:45:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm Message-ID: <9803010445.AA18387@alph02.triumf.ca> > > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP > > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all > > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and > > How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? In case anyone is interested in the benchmarks, here's a short summary: Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an "internal" SCSI ZIP) are present on my main development machine, a 11/73 (KDJ11-B) with 2 Mbytes of non-PMI memory. Caching on both controllers was enabled and two benchmarks were done with each disk subsystem. Times reported below are "wall times". All of this is done under the latest release of 2.11BSD using a non-networking system and no other work being done on the system. 1. "make sendmail" took 1159.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi, and 1165.3 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. It looks like, for most purposes, the ZIP on a good SCSI host adapter is just as good as an ESDI drive on a good ESDI controller. I think Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time, but I think that the buffering in the host adapter and in the ZIP drive itself makes this a minor concern. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25119 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:01:49 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se Sun Mar 1 18:02:45 1998 From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:02:45 +0100 (MET) Subject: That RL02 blues In-Reply-To: <199802281508.AA24580@world.std.com> Message-ID: Grant chain was intact on both machines. On the second machine the MSCP device was placed below the RLV12 and the RA disk worked fine! /Lars On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > <^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^ > > > That suggests the interrupt grant chain was not intact. Look to see if > one of the slots needs a grant card. Watch out as a few cards DO NOT > pass grant! > > > I understand why you would use rl02 they are handy. I have no experience > with them in unix context only Qbus VAX (under VMS) and PDP-11s under > rt-11/rsts/rsx-11 so I can't comment on software setup. > > Allison > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25136 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:05:29 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se Sun Mar 1 18:06:26 1998 From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:06:26 +0100 (MET) Subject: RL02 meets BSD In-Reply-To: <199802281618.QAA20434@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: Both systems have "pirate" drive controllers and they have cards that do pass grant signals. If I do not remember wrongly, I think that only RQDX-1 had the "feature" of not passing the grant chain. But we placed all RQDX controller at the bottom anyhow even though they worked further up. THis is of academical interest only since I do not have holes in the grant chain and do not have an RQDX controllers AND I have devices below the drive controller in the first case that do work! /Lars On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, J Lothian wrote: > I've had an RL02 working on an 11/750 running > BSD4.3. The RL11 controller only has 16 words of > buffer memory, so you've got to make sure that other > devices don't hog the bus too much. In particular, > UDAs should have their DMA burst set to something like 1. > Setting it much higher causes the RL11 to get data lates > as its silo overflows before it gets access to the bus > to do DMA. However, the RLV12 seems to have a much bigger > silo (256 bytes?), so this should't be a problem for it. > > The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems > &c. If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind > that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last > device on the bus. > > James > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25220 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:37:03 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se Sun Mar 1 18:37:58 1998 From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:37:58 +0100 (MET) Subject: RL02 meets BSD In-Reply-To: <9802281758.AA14586@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: For various reasons I can not give you the hardware config of the first system (Okay okay! I DO not want to crawl back in behind it under all the cabling and short out the house again because I did something aggravating to the power outlet in the process the last time I was in there) but the only thing I did to that one was to add the RLV12 at the bottom. The system worked before with all devices and did so afterwards too except for the RLV-controller. The second system looks like this: A B C D 1 CPU-----CPU-----CPU-----CPU 2 MEM-----MEM-----MEM-----MEM 3 RLV12---RLV12---RLV12---RLV12 4 TKQ50---TKQ50 DQNA----DQNA 5 SI------SI------SI------SI GLUED BACKPLANE FROM HERE AND DOWN (this used to be a VAX-station II. Remember them and cringe!) SI is a quad ESDI controller for one or two external drives from System Industries. On the other system I have a dual SI controller for RA81 clones (Eagle). There I DO have an RQDX-3 above the RLV12 but not so here. Grant chain on the uVAX bus looks like this: 1AB-2AB-3AB-4AB-4CD-5CD-5AB(and so on). The first three slots are "granted" only in the AB pair. The RLV12 does work with grants only on the AB pair however. It works fine in my three button 9 slot 22 bit backplane (classical PDP11 vintage rack mount cab) and there the grant chain goes ONLY on the AB side stright down (BA11-N and H9273). So, no, I do not think we have a grant problem. However, does the RLV12 handle drive interrupt like the RL11 does? It could be that ULTRIX only supports the UNIBUS controller and not the Qbus.. And if so, is there a fix for this out there? And if not, how do I get hold of enough NetBSD to get a uVAX up enough to have the config above, being able to network and being able to reach both the SI controller and the RLV12? Come to think of it, most of the no nonsense hard hat industry type PDP11's I've seen (and especially the OEM-ed ones) got some sort of winchester emulating one or several RL02s. Often combined with some sort of QIC-type tape recorder with secret density. To get ANYTHING on those rigs, I think you HAVE to do it the dd way after having moved the controller to a bigger system.... Amazing how things can turn... I used to spend a lot of time in trying to get away from the 16 bit operating systems into the wonderful world of 32 bit. Now I am struggling even harder to get back in there again. =) Fun is not always bigger, faster better! /Lars On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems > > &c. > > This certainly seems likely to me, too. What cards are in the > machine, and in which slots? What are the switches on the RLV12 > set to? > > > If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind > > that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last > > device on the bus. > > I think you're thinking of the RQDX1/2 here. > > Tim. > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA26727 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:58:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Mar 2 04:57:46 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:57:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: RL02 meets BSD In-Reply-To: from "Beastly Wolf" at Mar 1, 98 09:37:58 am Message-ID: <9803011857.AA28081@alph02.triumf.ca> > The second system looks like this: > A B C D > 1 CPU-----CPU-----CPU-----CPU > 2 MEM-----MEM-----MEM-----MEM > 3 RLV12---RLV12---RLV12---RLV12 > 4 TKQ50---TKQ50 DQNA----DQNA > 5 SI------SI------SI------SI > GLUED BACKPLANE FROM HERE AND DOWN > (this used to be a VAX-station II. > Remember them and cringe!) Ah, the "RC" aka "restricted configuration" aka "resin-coated" backplane. The BA23 has a special CD-bus in the first three slots. Usually it's not a problem to put a full-height card in the third slot, below the CPU and memory, but occasionally there are quad-height cards which actually pay some attention to stuff going on the CD side of the bus. Can you try rearranging your cards so that you have a dual-height card (i.e. the TKQ50 or DEQNA) in slot 3 AB, you have the 3 CD empty, and the RLV12 in slot 4? This involves you giving up either your TKQ50 or DEQNA, but I'm hoping that you can live without one or the other for a little while. Also, how are the jumpers/DIPswitches set on the RLV12? It's possible to do some weird things by sticking the RLV12 into 16-bit or 18-bit mode or by having the VEC set to something used by one of your other cards. If either of these is the case, regard the fact that the controller isn't usable as a Good Thing; having a RLV12 in 18-bit mode splatter data all around low memory isn't fun! Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA26876 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:43:50 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From sms at moe.2bsd.com Mon Mar 2 05:25:54 1998 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:25:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely Message-ID: <199803011925.LAA08986@moe.2bsd.com> Hi - > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Feb 28 20:45:54 1998 > > Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and > an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an I tracked down an address and phone number for Andromeda Systems - they are real close to me (in fact I drive by them every visit to Fry's ;-)) Andromeda Systems, Inc. 9000 Eton Avenue Canoga Park, CA 91304 818-709-7600 (voice) 818-709-7407 (FAX) No mention of a WWW site though. I'd imagine their boards, while very good, are quite expensive. As much as I'd like a Zip drive on the 11/93 I can't see spending US$1-2k for a $139 disk drive :-) > 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi > and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. WOW. That is quite surprising. > Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time, Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek' operations. Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip? I know there's the 2gb Jaz drive now but haven't heard anymore about a larger Zip. On the other hand there is the Syquest product line - they've a 135mb "zip like" (but not compatible) drive. Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA26957 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:09:53 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Mar 2 06:09:46 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:09:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <199803011925.LAA08986@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Mar 1, 98 11:25:54 am Message-ID: <9803012009.AA19319@alph02.triumf.ca> > > Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and > > an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an > I tracked down an address and phone number for Andromeda Systems - they > are real close to me (in fact I drive by them every visit to Fry's ;-)) > Andromeda Systems, Inc. > 9000 Eton Avenue > Canoga Park, CA 91304 > 818-709-7600 (voice) > 818-709-7407 (FAX) > > No mention of a WWW site though. Try http://www.andromedasystems.com/ > I'd imagine their boards, while > very good, are quite expensive. As much as I'd like a Zip drive > on the 11/93 I can't see spending US$1-2k for a $139 disk drive :-) Hook up 6 other SCSI devices to the board and you might change your mind! The SCDC also supports standard 34-pin 5.25" and 3.5" floppies. > > 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi > > and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. > > WOW. That is quite surprising. > > > Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time, > > Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek' > operations. Actually, the ZIP "in-use" LED wasn't lit during most of the 'find'. I suspect the Andromeda SCDC cached most of the important inodes quite early on. In terms of raw bandwidth to the Q-bus, nothing I've ever seen comes close to the SCDC. 2 Mbytes/second may not be a whole lot by modern PCI bus standards, but on the Q-bus it's very impressive. > Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip? I've heard mention of it too, but AFAIK it's still vaporware. 100 Mbytes is, indeed, pretty tight for a 2.11BSD distribution, but it does fit. Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA27003 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:32:58 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From jimc at zach1.tiac.net Mon Mar 2 06:32:20 1998 From: jimc at zach1.tiac.net (James E. Carpenter) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:32:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <199803011925.LAA08986@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Mar 1, 98 11:25:54 am Message-ID: > > Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time, > > Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek' > operations. > > Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip? I know there's the > 2gb Jaz drive now but haven't heard anymore about a larger Zip. On > the other hand there is the Syquest product line - they've a 135mb > "zip like" (but not compatible) drive. I don't know anything about larger Zip drives but Syquest makes the EZFlyer 230MB which is compatible with the EZFlyer 135. I got one for Christmas and love it. I _believe_ it's a bit faster than the Zip. The EZFlyer data sheet is at http://www.syquest.com/products/d_ezflyer.html in case anybody is interested. - Jim -- James E. Carpenter E-Mail: jimc at zach1.tiac.net 6 Munroe Drive Plainville, MA 02762-1108 ICBM: 42 00' 15"N 71 20' 00"W PGP: 7ADE9D99 Fingerprint: 8D AF 63 EC D3 51 14 3E F1 59 8A 68 32 63 3F 8E Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA27181 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:46:55 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 2 07:47:07 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:47:07 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs Message-ID: <199803012147.IAA01813@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, re the question `Are CD-ROMs the best method of distributing the PUPS archive of PDP-11 UNIX material'? The answer is: it's a good method, for the following reasons: + you can't easily write over the CD-ROM + impervious to magnetic fields + the PUPS archive is always going to be changing, as I find and add new stuff to it. + the SCO license enforces that I get written permission before I pass anything to a third party. Taking this in a conservative fashion, this might rule out a password-protected ftp archive. However, I'll check with Dion at SCO on this. + we can only charge fees for copying and distribution, and cannot make money on the CD-ROMs Therefore, treat the archive CD-ROM like you would the FreeBSD or Linux distributions on CD-ROM: they will go out of date, but you can purchase new versions of the CD-ROM, and they should be relatively inexpensive. Ok, so CD-ROMs are not the _best_ method of distributing the archive, but they are a _good_ way of doing so. Ciao, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27230 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:09:37 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Mon Mar 2 08:09:25 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:39:25 +1030 Subject: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs In-Reply-To: <199803012147.IAA01813@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 08:47:07AM +1100 References: <199803012147.IAA01813@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980302083925.10323@freebie.lemis.com> On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 8:47:07 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > All, > re the question `Are CD-ROMs the best method of distributing the > PUPS archive of PDP-11 UNIX material'? The answer is: it's a good method, for > the following reasons: > > + you can't easily write over the CD-ROM > + impervious to magnetic fields > + the PUPS archive is always going to be changing, as I find and > add new stuff to it. > + the SCO license enforces that I get written permission before I > pass anything to a third party. Taking this in a conservative > fashion, this might rule out a password-protected ftp archive. > However, I'll check with Dion at SCO on this. > + we can only charge fees for copying and distribution, and cannot > make money on the CD-ROMs > > Therefore, treat the archive CD-ROM like you would the FreeBSD or Linux > distributions on CD-ROM: they will go out of date, but you can purchase > new versions of the CD-ROM, and they should be relatively inexpensive. I still miss the distinction between CD-ROMs and WORMs. CD-ROMs are relatively expensive in small quantities, not just because of the setup costs, but also because of the wastage involved. WORMs (writeable CD-ROMs) are probably a better choice for the anticipated volume. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27282 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:29:10 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 2 08:29:23 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:29:23 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs In-Reply-To: <19980302083925.10323@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 2, 98 08:39:25 am" Message-ID: <199803012229.JAA01996@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Greg Lehey: > On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 8:47:07 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > > All, > > re the question `Are CD-ROMs the best method of distributing the > > PUPS archive of PDP-11 UNIX material'? The answer is: it's a good method, > > for the following reasons: > I still miss the distinction between CD-ROMs and WORMs. CD-ROMs are > relatively expensive in small quantities, not just because of the > setup costs, but also because of the wastage involved. WORMs > (writeable CD-ROMs) are probably a better choice for the anticipated > volume. > Greg Sorry, my fault. I use CD-ROM to mean anything which can be read in a CD-ROM drive. That obviously includes CD-W, which is what I really mean here. Ciao, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27317 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:38:20 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 2 08:38:33 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:38:33 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs In-Reply-To: <199803012228.OAA27094@rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> from Chris Drake at "Mar 1, 98 02:28:21 pm" Message-ID: <199803012238.JAA02051@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Chris Drake: > >Ok, so CD-ROMs are not the _best_ method of distributing the archive, but > >they are a _good_ way of doing so. > > Sounds good to me... Just out of curiosity, got any idea how many people are > on this list and/or might want a CD? I may have a limited ability to cut > some at work, but not if we're talking lots. I'd say at least 100 initially, and at least 300 in the first 12 months. I'm trying to organise a bunch of people who can burn CDs, to keep the individual workload down. I'll be creating a Rock Ridge image using mkisofs from the archive here. People who are prepared to burn CDs can either download the image, or the entire archive. For the latter, I'll include a makefile to build the CD image. Oviously, people who do mirror the archive: + will be asked to burn CDs, and will do so, + must be covered by a license. I will need either a signed letter (on paper) describing the license, or a PGP-signed email describing the license, before I can give access to the archive. Does this sound reasonable, everyone? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27506 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:17:32 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Mon Mar 2 10:17:01 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:47:01 +1030 Subject: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs In-Reply-To: <199803012238.JAA02051@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 09:38:33AM +1100 References: <199803012228.OAA27094@rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> <199803012238.JAA02051@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980302104701.60748@freebie.lemis.com> On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 9:38:33 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Chris Drake: >>> Ok, so CD-ROMs are not the _best_ method of distributing the archive, but >>> they are a _good_ way of doing so. >> >> Sounds good to me... Just out of curiosity, got any idea how many people are >> on this list and/or might want a CD? I may have a limited ability to cut >> some at work, but not if we're talking lots. > > I'd say at least 100 initially, and at least 300 in the first 12 months. > I'm trying to organise a bunch of people who can burn CDs, to keep the > individual workload down. > > I'll be creating a Rock Ridge image using mkisofs from the archive here. > People who are prepared to burn CDs can either download the image, or the > entire archive. For the latter, I'll include a makefile to build the CD image. > > Oviously, people who do mirror the archive: > > + will be asked to burn CDs, and will do so, As I mentioned before, I can cut tapes, but not burn CDs. I think this is still a valuable service. > + must be covered by a license. I will need either a signed > letter (on paper) describing the license, or a PGP-signed > email describing the license, before I can give access to > the archive. Right. Any further news about when this could happen? > Does this sound reasonable, everyone? Modulo my point above, yes. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27526 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:24:46 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 2 10:25:00 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:25:00 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs Message-ID: <199803020025.LAA06066@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Greg writes: >> Oviously, people who do mirror the archive: >> will be asked to burn CDs, and will do so, >> > As I mentioned before, I can cut tapes, but not burn CDs. I think > this is still a valuable service. Apologies again, Greg. Yes cutting tapes will also be valuable, esp. for people who have a PDP-11. > Right. Any further news about when this could happen? No, I'm waiting on feedback from Dion. He did say he had started the process of making it a product, but I don't have an ETA for it at the moment. Many thanks again for volunteering!! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA27839 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:41:04 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 2 11:41:16 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:41:16 +1100 (EST) Subject: Part of PUPS Archive via FTP Message-ID: <199803020141.MAA06698@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, To show you what I'm thinking of for the CD-ROM version of the PUPS archive, I've put the unlicensed parts up for anonymous ftp at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/PUPS_Archive/ I've kept the directory structure intact, but you won't find any files that require a source license. I'd appreciate any comments. Note that there's a directory called Trees missing. It will contain `exploded' trees for v6, v7 and 2.11BSD. The Lists directory is interesting: it contains tar vtf listings of all tarballs in the archive, with added checksums so you can determine identical files in multiple tarballs. This is all rough cut at the moment, so don't treat anything as unchangeable. Warren From jorgen.pehrson at seinf.mail.abb.com Mon Mar 2 20:30:40 1998 From: jorgen.pehrson at seinf.mail.abb.com (jorgen.pehrson at seinf.mail.abb.com) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:30:40 +0100 Subject: Some PDP11 Q.. Message-ID: <412565BB.0036DA5F.00@notestest.mail.abb.com> Hi, I was given an PDP-11/84 but I have no idea what OS it has installed. It says this when it starts up: Testing in progress - Please wait 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 starting system . __: ADA1: Load resident files A.DU0: BOOT from @ 526 fp ch Memory size 2048kBytes v06.12.413 VISONIK Building supervisory and managment system Landis & Gyr, Building Control __: INI0: Start of RSYS ! __:SU03: Update Common from SYSL ! __: SIX2: Dataset IM: Rebuild Index __: SIX2: Dataset REA: Rebuild Index __: SIX2: Dataset DM: Rebuild Index __: MELD: Init STA-Pointer 43252 __: MELD: Init ZMS-Pointer 10774 It has controlled the ventilation system on a hospital of that can be of any help. Anyone knows what OS this could be? And another thing. This machine had a Wangtek 5150EQ tape streamer. If I look at the cables it seems to be SCSI. And the controller for the streamer is not manufactured by DEC. (There's no DEC logo on it at least.) It says B 01079 ISS.4 1984 CTS-11 CKK 3890 on the board. Is this a SCSI controller board? Can I connect SCSI disks to it or is it a streamer only interface? There're some (bad quality) pictures of the board at http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum/pics/pdp11-board1.jpg There's a switch on the front of the CPU box that says "AUX ON | OFF". And on the back of the PSU there's a switch that says "remote | off | local". What function do they have? Thanks! -- Jorgen Pehrson jp at spektr.ludvika.se http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA00303 for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:48:25 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Mar 3 02:48:04 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:48:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some PDP11 Q.. In-Reply-To: <412565BB.0036DA5F.00@notestest.mail.abb.com> from "jorgen.pehrson@seinf.mail.abb.com" at Mar 2, 98 11:30:40 am Message-ID: <9803021648.AA23582@alph02.triumf.ca> > I was given an PDP-11/84 but I have no idea what OS it has installed. > __: ADA1: Load resident files > A.DU0: BOOT from @ 526 fp ch Memory size 2048kBytes v06.12.413 > __: INI0: Start of RSYS ! > __:SU03: Update Common from SYSL ! It looks like a version of RSTS/E to me (but that's mainly because I know it isn't RT-11 or RSX-11...) > And another thing. This machine had a Wangtek 5150EQ tape streamer. If I > look > at the cables it seems to be SCSI. And the controller for the streamer is > not manufactured > by DEC. (There's no DEC logo on it at least.) > It says B 01079 ISS.4 1984 CTS-11 CKK 3890 on the board. Is this a SCSI > controller board? It's almost certainly a QIC-02 controller, probably doing TS11 emulation. The sure way to test if its doing TS11 emulation or not is to drop into console ODT and see if there's something living at the TS11 CSRs at 17772520. > There's a switch on the front of the CPU box that says "AUX ON | OFF". And > on the back of > the PSU there's a switch that says "remote | off | local". What function do > they have? These control the 3-wire DEC power controller bus. Warren may want to correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't non-Unix issues like these best taken to forums such as vmsnet.pdp-11 and comp.os.rsts ? Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA03193 for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:28:13 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Mar 3 09:28:19 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:28:19 +1100 (EST) Subject: Full Steam Ahead with License In-Reply-To: <19980302152605.46176@sco.com> from Dion Johnson at "Mar 2, 98 03:26:05 pm" Message-ID: <199803022328.KAA08076@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Dion Johnson: > I am going to give myself the go-ahead and not bother those busy > legal folks any more. Goodo. > It looks like we may be able to permit credit cards and Intl Money Orders. > Are VISA and AMEX enough cards to support? I should know pretty soon on this. I suspect that would be fine. > > Someone asked if a password-protected ftp site would be ok? > > I thought that it might contravene the license. What's your opinion? > > As long as you know WHO has the password, that would be in accordance > with the license, as I read it. > -Dion That's excellent news, Dion. I'll cc this to the PUPS mailing list. Thanks again, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA03683 for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:54:41 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Tue Mar 3 11:54:30 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:24:30 +1030 Subject: Full Steam Ahead with License In-Reply-To: <199803022328.KAA08076@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:28:19AM +1100 References: <19980302152605.46176@sco.com> <199803022328.KAA08076@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980303122430.47237@freebie.lemis.com> On Tue, 3 March 1998 at 10:28:19 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Dion Johnson: >> I am going to give myself the go-ahead and not bother those busy >> legal folks any more. > > Goodo. Great news! >> It looks like we may be able to permit credit cards and Intl Money Orders. >> Are VISA and AMEX enough cards to support? I should know pretty soon on this. > > I suspect that would be fine. I would think that you should add MasterCard to that list, possibly instead of Amexco. Where do we go from here? Can we start to bombard you with license applications? Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA03728 for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:13:13 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Mar 3 12:13:33 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:13:33 +1100 (EST) Subject: Full Steam Ahead with License In-Reply-To: <19980303122430.47237@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 3, 98 12:24:30 pm" Message-ID: <199803030213.NAA08617@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Greg Lehey: > >> It looks like we may be able to permit credit cards and Intl Money Orders. > > I would think that you should add MasterCard to that list, possibly > instead of Amexco. > > Where do we go from here? Can we start to bombard [Dion] with > license applications? > Greg Dion sent me this suggestion: So I guess what we have is this: 1. Prospective licensee gets the license from [PUPS] website. 2. He signs and sends to SCO and sends his $100 to SF PO box. 3. Someone here [at SCO] lets [PUPS] know that he is a licensee. 4. [PUPS] can send him the source code (and charge a fee for that as you see fit). SCO wants the license on paper. I asked him for the final license in a form suitable for printing, e.g PostScript, PDF, Word format (gasp!). Greg's suggestion about MasterCard went to Dion as well. I guess we just have to sit back & wait until we get the word (and the final license) from Dion. As soon as I have all the details, there will be a description of the steps you need to perform in order to get a license placed on the PUPS home page. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA06396 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:32:22 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From neil at skatter.usask.ca Wed Mar 4 02:32:06 1998 From: neil at skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:32:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: Full Steam Ahead with License Message-ID: <199803031632.KAA00644@hydrus.USask.Ca> Another suggestion - keep a list of the licencees on the PUPS website. That way everyone would know who they could exchange software with. Most new stuff would probably end up on the site anyway, but during development it might be good to know. Neil Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA06544 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:08:49 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Mar 4 03:08:37 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:08:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Full Steam Ahead with License In-Reply-To: <199803031632.KAA00644@hydrus.USask.Ca> from "Neil Johnson" at Mar 3, 98 10:32:06 am Message-ID: <9803031708.AA24509@alph02.triumf.ca> > Another suggestion - keep a list of the licencees on the PUPS website. That > way everyone would know who they could exchange software with. Most new > stuff would probably end up on the site anyway, but during development > it might be good to know. As most all of the "new stuff" lately seems to be 2.11BSD-related, this brings up a (probably silly) question of mine: what's the relationship between the SCO license agreement and 2.9, 2.10, and 2.11BSD? Will the SCO license be functionally equivalent to a WE/AT&T source license (other than the per-machine limitations)? In other words, are the 2BSD distributions "SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMS" in the language of the agreement? Another stupid question: few of us (perhaps I'm the only one) have CD-ROM readers/writers attached to PDP-11's. Will those who have to transfer the source kit through a PC-clone or other Unix workstation have to license the intermediary machines with SCO? In other words, will the intermediary machines need to be registered as "DESIGNATED CPU"s? Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA07477 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:10:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 4 07:10:42 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:10:42 +1100 (EST) Subject: Full Steam Ahead with License In-Reply-To: <9803031708.AA24509@alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Mar 3, 98 09:08:37 am" Message-ID: <199803032110.IAA15973@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Tim Shoppa: > > Another suggestion - keep a list of the licencees on the PUPS website. That > > way everyone would know who they could exchange software with. Most new > > stuff would probably end up on the site anyway, but during development > > it might be good to know. > > As most all of the "new stuff" lately seems to be 2.11BSD-related, > this brings up a (probably silly) question of mine: what's the > relationship between the SCO license agreement and 2.9, 2.10, and 2.11BSD? > Will the SCO license be functionally equivalent to a WE/AT&T source > license (other than the per-machine limitations)? In other words, > are the 2BSD distributions "SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMS" in the language > of the agreement? 2BSDs are definitely SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMS as they are derived from the listed products (6th, 7th Edition and 32V) and are 16-bit operating systems. > Another stupid question: few of us (perhaps I'm the only one) have > CD-ROM readers/writers attached to PDP-11's. Will those who have to > transfer the source kit through a PC-clone or other Unix workstation > have to license the intermediary machines with SCO? In other words, > will the intermediary machines need to be registered as "DESIGNATED > CPU"s? My interpretation is this: DESIGNATED CPU means all CPUs licensed as such for a specific SOURCE CODE PRODUCT. SCO grants to LICENSEE a personal, nontransferable and nonexclusive right to use, in the AUTHORIZED COUNTRY, each SOURCE CODE PRODUCT identified in Section 3 of this Agreement, solely for personal use [..] and solely on or in conjunction with DESIGNATED CPUs [...]. Such right to use includes the right to modify such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT and to prepare DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT based on such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT, In my opinion, you can't USE the source code unless you have a CPU which run the machine code which is produced by the source code. I can't prepare a DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT if I don't have a PDP-11 or an emulator of such. I'd better check with Dion. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA07528 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:16:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 4 07:16:37 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:16:37 +1100 (EST) Subject: Full Steam Ahead with License In-Reply-To: <199803031632.KAA00644@hydrus.USask.Ca> from Neil Johnson at "Mar 3, 98 10:32:06 am" Message-ID: <199803032116.IAA16053@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Neil Johnson: > Another suggestion - keep a list of the licencees on the PUPS website. That > way everyone would know who they could exchange software with. Most new > stuff would probably end up on the site anyway, but during development > it might be good to know. This is a good idea, but I'd be happy for a licencee to opt out from the list if they so desired. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA07770 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:48:48 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 4 07:49:10 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:49:10 +1100 (EST) Subject: PUPS Volunteers list Message-ID: <199803032149.IAA17305@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, I've just created a SMALL mailing list for those people who have volunteered to write CD-ROMs, cut tapes etc. so we can distribute the software covered by the up-coming SCO source license. If you had volunteered but didn't receive any email about it today, please mail me back as I've missed you somehow. Still waiting on Dion re the final license document and the questions regarding Mastercard and `intermediate' CPUs. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA07931 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:20:44 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 4 08:21:10 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:21:10 +1100 (EST) Subject: From Dion: intermediate CPUs Message-ID: <199803032221.JAA17553@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> ----- Forwarded message from Dion Johnson ----- > > Will those who have to > > transfer the source kit through a PC-clone or other Unix workstation > > have to license the intermediary machines with SCO? In other words, > > will the intermediary machines need to be registered as "DESIGNATED > > CPU"s? > > I hope not! > Warren Right, that makes no sense at all. I suspect we (you and I) will want to whip up a sort of cover letter for the license that explains how to fill out the form and, as experience accumulates, a FAQ, etc. -Dion ----- End of forwarded message from Dion Johnson ----- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA07993 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:33:15 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 4 08:32:54 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:32:54 -0500 Subject: PUPS Volunteers list Message-ID: <199803032232.AA27033@world.std.com> < I've just created a SMALL mailing list for those people who have from Allison J Parent at "Mar 3, 98 05:32:54 pm" Message-ID: <199803032236.JAA17613@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Allison J Parent: > < I've just created a SMALL mailing list for those people who have > > The license is more concerned with source level code. What about those of > us that are interested in binaries only configured for a working system? You can pick up binaries for 5th, 6th and 7th Edition UNIX for free, as they are already covered by a SCO license. See http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/Licenses/v7_bin_license.txt If you also look at the PUPS Home Page http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS you can pick up RK05 disk images for all three edition, as part of Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA09888 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:54:30 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Mar 4 10:54:01 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:54:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some PDP11 Q.. In-Reply-To: <412565BB.0036DA5F.00@notestest.mail.abb.com> from "jorgen.pehrson@seinf.mail.abb.com" at Mar 2, 98 11:30:40 am Message-ID: <9803040054.AA29624@alph02.triumf.ca> > I was given an PDP-11/84 but I have no idea what OS it has installed. > ... > And another thing. This machine had a Wangtek 5150EQ tape streamer. If I > ... > There're some (bad quality) pictures of the board at > http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum/pics/pdp11-board1.jpg I finally got a chance to look at the picture; the board looks to me like an MTI MSV22, which is a Q-bus board. There's no way that it's a Unibus board. Are you sure you've got an 11/84 there, and not a 11/83? Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA10009 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:24:00 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From sms at moe.2bsd.com Wed Mar 4 11:17:18 1998 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:17:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: PUPS Volunteers list Message-ID: <199803040117.RAA13880@moe.2bsd.com> > From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) > Query: > > The license is more concerned with source level code. What about those of > us that are interested in binaries only configured for a working system? If you don't plan on staying current with parts that change then a binary only system might work. I can't see myself volunteering to build binaries (especially kernels) for varying configurations. The older, 'static' or frozen (for now), distributions can be run binary only - but the traditional method of updating systems was to either distribute diffs or replacement source modules. One main reason for this, especially in the kernel (but also some applications level stuff), is that the address space of a PDP-11 does not allow the luxury of including all ways of doing something. For example: the C library has to be build for either 'hosts' file or resolver routines - can't do both. So someone's running a binary only release but with a hosts file orientation. THey want updated binaries but all my systems are resolver based - building new binaries would be painful and time consuming. What happens when a system include file changes and all (or many) of the binaries in the system are affected - who's going to volunteer to recompile the system and make a new CD for the folks who don't want to maintain current sources? In the kernel arena it's even worse - who ever builds a kernel would have to request a 'config' file (do you want 'quotas' or not, do you want 'networking' and if so which ethernet card, do you want 1 or 2 MSCP controllers, and so on. Ick.) and custom build a kernel (can't include _all_ possible devices, etc because it just won't fit). I don't know about any one else but I'd rather not get into the providing custom kernels and binaries. From V5 on (I can't speak for earlier) you were expected to have a source license (which thanks to SCO's help we now will have) and install/maintain the system from those. Binary only setups were extremely uncommon (except in shops with lots of machines and they'd have a single 'master' source system and build and distribute from that). Configurability is very limited without sources and I'd have thought that everyone would be dancing with joy at being freed from binary only releases. As has been mentioned before there are binary only V6, V7, and V5 images already available without requiring a source license at all. There's no need to pay the minimal $100 for the upcoming license if all that's desired is a binary only system that's preconfigured for a limited set of devices. (re)configuration takes sources. So I guess the question is who's volunteering to build and distribute the binary only kits? Not me ;-) Steven Schultz Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA10998 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:37:18 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Wed Mar 4 15:37:06 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:07:06 +1030 Subject: PUPS Volunteers list In-Reply-To: <199803040117.RAA13880@moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 05:17:18PM -0800 References: <199803040117.RAA13880@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <19980304160706.51098@freebie.lemis.com> On Tue, 3 March 1998 at 17:17:18 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: >> From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) >> Query: >> >> The license is more concerned with source level code. What about those of >> us that are interested in binaries only configured for a working system? > > If you don't plan on staying current with parts that change then > a binary only system might work. I can't see myself volunteering > to build binaries (especially kernels) for varying configurations. > > (omitting detailled explanation) > > I > don't know about any one else but I'd rather not get into the > providing custom kernels and binaries. All good reasons. I suppose I could give access to an emulator over the net if anybody wants to do it themselves. This is not the way to go if you have your own machine with enough storage, but it might be if you're low on storage. > As has been mentioned before there are binary only V6, V7, and V5 > images already available without requiring a source license at > all. JOOI, where are these? Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA12363 for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:25:12 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 4 23:24:53 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:24:53 -0500 Subject: Binary-only PDP UNIX Message-ID: <199803041324.AA26659@world.std.com> Save for the rk05 image does not match my hardware (no rk05). Also sin <> they are disk images the target disk would have to have the same bad bl <> map or all havoc happens. < < have a single 'master' source system and build and distribute from < that). For me that would be perfectly useless as the only PDP-11 compuler is the DECUS-C and ti's far to minimal to crunch that. Chicken and egg. Right now I need the chicken on my 11/73 before I can consider the sources and then I have to configure enough storage to hold them. < that everyone would be dancing with joy at being freed from binary < only releases. I sorta am but for me $100 might as well be $10,000. < < As has been mentioned before there are binary only V6, V7, and V5 < images already available without requiring a source license at Their problem is from what I can tell is they are not runable on my 11/73 with the hardware I have. There is that little problem of transfering them (via RT-11?). My config, call it a sanity test to see if there is an existant binary I can run: 11/73 1mb non-pmi ram DLV11j RQDX3 rx33, rx52(x2) (rx53 available) RX02 RLV12 and one RL02 TK50 I can swap a DHV-11 for the DLV11j. I can put in 1 more meg of non-pmi ram. The TK50 is shared with a VAX. RT-11 V5 running. There are no RKxxs available. I expect I'll never be able to network the 11s I have, nor will I have adaquate resources (Disk) to compile the kernel. I will not discuss the 11/23 or the pro350 sitting next to them as it's been implied they could only run the oldest versions due to lack of I&D space. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 5 12:21:36 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:21:36 -0500 Subject: Binary-only PDP UNIX Message-ID: <199803050221.AA05673@world.std.com> suggest a way to get the images on to the RL02 using RT-11 I'm interest <> I can kermit the files from the PC so that step is not a problem. < Hi dear PUPS! It is about one week gone from the mome I got sufficiently powerful PDP-11. Before this I ran LSI-11/02 under RT-11 and couldn't think about unix. Those new machine is the main reason for joining to this list for me. It includes: KDF-11 CPU, RQDX3, DHQ11 8 line async option, TQK70 tape controller, 1.5Mbyte of memory etc. etc. I also have the complete BSD2.9 source distribution in tar file and like to run all of the above. Currently I've started KDF11 and it seems to be ok. Problems are: It has lots of switches (the same for MSV-11 boards and RQDX3 and all of that) and have very little docs about how to set it correctly. When I tried to bring up the KDF with memory at once KDF said : no memory :-] but it runs ok with little 32K memory board from LSI-11/2 ! Seems to me that my MSV-11 boards have wrong starting address settings or something... Same story with RQDX3 - currently I have no RDx disks so I thought that boot my system from RX50 is not a bad idea... I've plugged standard 5 inch floppy to RQDX3 sig. dist. connector labeled "RX50" and fired up the machine. Got nothing. I tried to investigate what happens to bootstrap. I've detected that during init of mscp controller it successfully undergoes steps 1 and 2 ( or maybe even 3) but in next step it returns 0 in SA and bootstrap waits for eternity when controller will enter next step... Looks like hardware fault, ha? Then I tried to check my TQK70 board. It had nothing connected to it, and I traced it's initialization sequence the same way. IT ALSO RETURNS ZERO in 3rd or 4th init step!. Can anyone help with the above? Sincerely yours - Stacy. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA19463 for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:38:35 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 5 21:38:38 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:38:38 GMT Subject: Hardware guru needed! In-Reply-To: Stacy Minkin "Hardware guru needed!" (Mar 5, 12:59) References: <199803050759.MAA00282@harrier.asiasys.com> Message-ID: <9803051138.ZM8072@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Mar 5, 12:59, Stacy Minkin wrote: > Currently I've started KDF11 and it seems to be ok. > Problems are: It has lots of switches (the same for MSV-11 boards and > RQDX3 and all of that) You probably don't need to change anyhing on the RQDX3 -- they're usually set up correctly (because they'e not often changed :-) > Same story with RQDX3 - currently I have no RDx disks so I thought > that boot my system from RX50 is not a bad idea... I've plugged > standard 5 inch floppy to RQDX3 sig. dist. connector labeled "RX50" > and fired up the machine. Got nothing. During init, the RQDX3 probes the disk(s) to see what's there. For a floppy, it checks for an RX50 by selecting the drive, finding track zero, and then switching the side select. On a real RX50, which actually behaves as two separate single-sided drives, this turns off the track zero signal; but not on any normal drive. There's a way to fool it, but you need to modify the drive or add a little circuitry. However, if you can find an RX33-compatible drive, that would be more useful anyway. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA20302 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 03:43:39 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Mar 6 02:25:43 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:25:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hardware guru needed! In-Reply-To: <199803050759.MAA00282@harrier.asiasys.com> from "Stacy Minkin" at Mar 5, 98 12:59:48 pm Message-ID: <9803051625.AA03469@alph02.triumf.ca> > Those new machine is the > main reason for joining to this list for me. > It includes: KDF-11 CPU, RQDX3, DHQ11 8 line async option, > TQK70 tape controller, 1.5Mbyte of memory etc. etc. > I also have the complete BSD2.9 source distribution > in tar file and like to run all of the above. Big problem: BSD2.9 doesn't support your disk (RQDX3) or tape (TQK70) controllers. I'd suggest BSD2.11, but it doesn't run on your CPU. > Currently I've started KDF11 and it seems to be ok. > Problems are: It has lots of switches (the same for MSV-11 boards and > RQDX3 and all of that) and have very little docs about > how to set it correctly. The best place to ask about these things would be the usenet newsgroup vmsnet.pdp-11. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA20695 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 05:24:04 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From sms at moe.2bsd.com Fri Mar 6 04:07:15 1998 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:07:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hardware guru needed! Message-ID: <199803051807.KAA22049@moe.2bsd.com> Hi - > From: Tim Shoppa > > Those new machine is the main reason for joining to this list for me. > > It includes: KDF-11 CPU, RQDX3, DHQ11 8 line async option, > > TQK70 tape controller, 1.5Mbyte of memory etc. etc. > > Big problem: BSD2.9 doesn't support your disk (RQDX3) or tape (TQK70) > controllers. I'd suggest BSD2.11, but it doesn't run on your CPU. That's almost two problems :-) It might be possible to retrofit [T]MSCP support into 2.9 but it would be a lot of work and a system with both MSCP and non-MSCP devices would be required. Swapping out the cpu card for a KDJ-11AB (M8192 if my memory hasn't completely faded) wouldn't be too expensive and would speed things up too. Hmmm, might need a MXV11 bootrom card. Perhaps a KDJ-11BB would be a better way to go. Steven Schultz Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA21408 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 07:25:23 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Mar 6 06:23:21 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:23:21 -0800 Subject: Just got V7 going on 11/83... Message-ID: <13337322993.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I just got V7 to load on my 11/83. Killes 2 hours playing wump. Who says you need grpahics for games? :) Anyway, I know there's no source liscense yet, but can I get someone to build a kernel for me? I wouldn't have to see source... It'd be real neat to hang this off a termserver and allow telnets... I'm gonna do that with my RSTS box real soon, the only limitation here is that V7 is only built with support for the console. I have the V7 image downloaded from DEC. I kermitted it to the 83, and did COPY v7.DSK/FILE DL0:/DEVICE It truncated something, but FSCK says the pack is fine. I have to load RT-11 from the MSCP, then say BOOT/FOR DL0: to start V7, though because if I tell the ROM to load DL0, it dies saying the disk isn't bootable. But at least it runs! ------- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21527 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:13:01 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From kolya at zepa.net Fri Mar 6 07:12:44 1998 From: kolya at zepa.net (Nickolai Zeldovich) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:12:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP Prompt? Message-ID: Hello, I'm trying to revive a PDP 11/04, but not having much luck at the moment.. I got a serial terminal hooked up to it, and upon bootup, it gives me the following on the display: 177777 177776 $ apparently, $ is some sort of a prompt. It only accepts two characters, and after, it seems, any pair of characters, will go on and give me a new prompt. Is this some sort of a ROM debugger? What can I tell it? I think I've tried almost every combination of 2 letters without any success.. Some info about the PDP: It's a 11/04, with a dual 8" floppy drive and some big cage made by MTS, with nothing in it but a large number of slots. Has some buttons saying 'STATION 1 DUMP', 'STATION 2 DUMP', and so on.. The floppy drive has two 8" floppies in it, one of them appears to be some sort of a system floppy, the other has no label. Does this look like even remotely salvageable? :) -- [ Nickolai Zeldovich // nickolai at zepa.net ] Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21757 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:52:44 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Mar 6 07:52:14 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:52:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP Prompt? In-Reply-To: from "Nickolai Zeldovich" at Mar 5, 98 04:12:44 pm Message-ID: <9803052152.AA01812@alph02.triumf.ca> > I'm trying to revive a PDP 11/04, but not having much luck at the moment.. > I got a serial terminal hooked up to it, and upon bootup, it gives me the > following on the display: > > 177777 177776 > $ > > apparently, $ is some sort of a prompt. It only accepts two characters, > and after, it seems, any pair of characters, will go on and give me a new > prompt. > > Is this some sort of a ROM debugger? What can I tell it? I think I've > tried almost every combination of 2 letters without any success.. Commands available at this prompt include: Lnnnnnn - to set an address E - to examine the address set with L Dnnnnnn - to deposit at an address set with L S - begin running at the loaded address The console ROM is very picky; all letters need to be in upper case, and you need to type and in exactly the right places. It's also very stupid, in that if you try to Examine or Deposit to a non-existent address, the only clue you get is that the RUN light on the goes out and you have restart it from the front. > It's a 11/04, with a dual 8" floppy drive and some big cage made by MTS, > with nothing in it but a large number of slots. Has some buttons saying > 'STATION 1 DUMP', 'STATION 2 DUMP', and so on.. The floppy drive has two > 8" floppies in it, one of them appears to be some sort of a system floppy, > the other has no label. > > Does this look like even remotely salvageable? :) It'll never run a modernish Unix, but it will run RT-11 just fine. Is the floppy controller a DEC RX211 (M8256) or RX11 (M7846) or some third-party clone? Are there any boot ROM's on the M9312? The RX01 boot ROM is 23-753A9, and the RX02 boot rom is 23-811A9. If you've got a third party RX clone controller, it may have the boot ROM on that board. Try examining addresses 173000, 173200, 173400, 173600, and 171000 to see if a boot ROM might be living at any of these addresses. As this is very non-Unix related, you might want to ask any other questions you have on a more general PDP-11 related forum, such as the Usenet newsgroup "vmsnet.pdp-11". Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26620 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:33:09 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From stacy at asia.uznet.net Fri Mar 6 15:34:38 1998 From: stacy at asia.uznet.net (Stacy Minkin) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:34:38 +0500 Subject: Hardware guru needed Message-ID: <199803060534.KAA00190@harrier.Uznet.NET> >What backplane? There are 16, 18 and 22 bit address backplanes and >using the smaller with the larger memory generally does not work and >give an address error. >I prefer to use part/model number like H9273(a backplane) or >M8259(memory). How actually distinguish these backplanes? I can check whether extended address lines are routed to slots, if it sufficient - ok. If not - are there more differencies? >What you need is a copy of the dec hand books that list all those details. >Any of the volumes from the mid to late 80s would help. No chance to get it in xUSSR! >Standard floppy? You can use a DEC RX50 or an RX33(teacfd55gfv). If >using the latter *all* of the jumper must be set up correctly in the >drive. The RX33 is a 1.2m 5.25" drive with speed select. You cannot >use a PC 5.25 360k drive or a 3.5" drive(actually it's possible but, >very non standard and unhelpful to you at this time). Which logical drive address should be set on floppy? >Unless the jumpers or switches on the RQDX3 were messed with the defalt >addresses and config are usually the way they are set and fit for use. The time I got RQDX3 it's address was set wrong. I've changed it immediately but there are lots of other switches... >For the RDxx you can use a ST225(rd31), st251(rd32), QUANTUM D540(rd52), >micropolus 1325(rd53) or MAXTOR2990(RD54) if they are formatted correctly. >or any other drive that matches the number of heads and cylinders of those >listed. Note those are all MFM type drives. Has anyone formatter? >Allison Stacy Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26655 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:48:40 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From stacy at asia.uznet.net Fri Mar 6 15:50:05 1998 From: stacy at asia.uznet.net (Stacy Minkin) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:50:05 +0500 Subject: hardware guru needed Message-ID: <199803060550.KAA00239@harrier.Uznet.NET> >Big problem: BSD2.9 doesn't support your disk (RQDX3) or tape (TQK70) >controllers. I'd suggest BSD2.11, but it doesn't run on your CPU. No problem. I can write this drivers. Pete Tornbull wrote about triggering "TRACK0" signal in responce to triggering "SIDE SEL". Is it the only difference? Stacy. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA29268 for pups-liszt; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 06:47:23 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se Sat Mar 7 05:48:24 1998 From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:48:24 +0100 (MET) Subject: Hardware guru needed In-Reply-To: <199803060534.KAA00190@harrier.Uznet.NET> Message-ID: About formatter.. The VAXstation 2000 can format iron beds. You plug in 'any' mfm drive and if the enter TEST 53. If the machine does not recognize the drive, it will prompt you for drive parameters. /Lars On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Stacy Minkin wrote: > > >What backplane? There are 16, 18 and 22 bit address backplanes and > >using the smaller with the larger memory generally does not work and > >give an address error. > > >I prefer to use part/model number like H9273(a backplane) or > >M8259(memory). > How actually distinguish these backplanes? > I can check whether extended address lines are routed to slots, if > it sufficient - ok. If not - are there more differencies? > > >What you need is a copy of the dec hand books that list all those details. > >Any of the volumes from the mid to late 80s would help. > > No chance to get it in xUSSR! > > >Standard floppy? You can use a DEC RX50 or an RX33(teacfd55gfv). If > >using the latter *all* of the jumper must be set up correctly in the > >drive. The RX33 is a 1.2m 5.25" drive with speed select. You cannot > >use a PC 5.25 360k drive or a 3.5" drive(actually it's possible but, > >very non standard and unhelpful to you at this time). > > Which logical drive address should be set on floppy? > > >Unless the jumpers or switches on the RQDX3 were messed with the defalt > >addresses and config are usually the way they are set and fit for use. > > The time I got RQDX3 it's address was set wrong. I've changed it immediately > but there are lots of other switches... > > >For the RDxx you can use a ST225(rd31), st251(rd32), QUANTUM D540(rd52), > >micropolus 1325(rd53) or MAXTOR2990(RD54) if they are formatted correctly. > >or any other drive that matches the number of heads and cylinders of those > >listed. Note those are all MFM type drives. > > Has anyone formatter? > > > >Allison > > Stacy > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05932 for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 06:36:05 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Mar 9 05:35:55 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:35:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source? In-Reply-To: from "Beastly Wolf" at Mar 6, 98 08:48:24 pm Message-ID: <9803081935.AA26778@alph02.triumf.ca> I've been sorting through some RL02's that came with a 11/23 system that I bought at a UBC SERF sale a year or so ago. On these RL02's there is at least one bootable V6 system, apparently generated specifically to be run on a 11/23. This ought to be of some interest to folks with real 11/23's with RL02 drives, as the other V6 systems that I'm aware of don't have RL02 handlers. Here's the question: this RL02 apparently has kernel sources in the directories /sys/ken and /sys/dmr. Does the presence of these files mean that I can only distribute images of this RL02 to those with source licenses? A non-legal question: the system identifies itself as "v6" when it boots, but there is a "v7.h" header file in the /sys directory. Is this maybe really a V7 system? Or maybe from an era when the trnasition from V6 to V7 was being made? Datestamps on the files are from 1982. For those who are listed, a log produced while running in single-user mode from a copy of the RL02 pack. Note that although the system was generated for a 11/23, it's running on a 11/73. The fact that it has more memory than "max" seems to confuse the system horribly when it goes into multi-user mode. Short of doing a lobotomy, is there any way to get around this? Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) b dl0 !unix unix v6 11/23 mem = 99 KW max = 63 # CD /SYS # LS V7.H FILE.H LIB1 SEG.H TTY.H BUF.H FILSYS.H LIB2 SGTTY.H USER.H CONF INO.H PARAM.H STAT.H CONF.H INODE.H PROC.H SYSTM.H DMR KEN REG.H TEXT.H # LS DMR KEN DMR: MAKEFILE DHFDM.O HT.O PIR.C TC.O AD.C DN.C IC.C PIR.O TM.C AD.O DN.O IC.O RF.C TM.O ADOLD.C DP.C IOCTL.C RF.O TTY.C BDREL.C DP.O IOCTL.O RK.C TTY.O BIO.C DUP.C IR.C RK.O TTY.S BIO.O DUP.O IR.O RL.C TTYI.C CAT.C DZ.C KL.C RL.O TTYI.O CAT.O DZ.O KL.O RM04.LAYOUT TTYINEW.C CR.C FAKE.C LP.C RP.C VS.C CR.O FAKE.O LP.O RP.O VS.O DC.C HM.C MEM.C RX2.C VT.C DC.O HM.O MEM.O RX2.O VT.O DH.C HP.C OLDRL.C STAT.C XP.C DH.O HP.O PARTAB.C STAT.O XP.O DHDM.C HS.C PARTAB.O SYS.C XY.C DHDM.O HS.O PC.C SYS.O XY.O DHFDM.C HT.C PC.O TC.C KEN: MAKEFILE IGET.S PIPE.C SUBR.C SYSENT.C ALLOC.C IOCTL.C PRF.C SYS1.C TEXT.C CLOCK.C MAIN.C RDWRI.C SYS2.C TRAP.C FIO.C MALLOC.C SIG.C SYS3.C TRAP.S IGET.C NAMI.C SLP.C SYS4.C # CD /USR # LS ADM HANNAH LEUNG OLD WHO BATCH HARDY LIB PROGM XLIB BIN INCLUDE LOG RAWICZ XYD EVANS INF LPD TMP YEUNG FORT KNOWLES MDEC UCB GAMES KUKAN NEEDHAM WEBB # LS GAMES ADVENT CHESS CUBIC TTT WUMP BJ CORE MOO TTT.K WUMPUS # LS UCB MAIL DRIBBLE.OUT GREP PIX SSP APROPOS EX HEAD PRINT STRINGS ASTAGS EX.OLD IUL PRINTENV TMP CKDIR EXPAND LAST PTAGS TOD CLEAR EYACC LOCK PX TRA CLOCK FLEECE LS PX34 TSET CR3 FMT.UCB MAKEWHATIS PXP UNTMP CTAGS FOLD MAN PXP34 VI CXREF FROM MKSTR PXREF W DAYTIME FTAGS MSGS RESET WHATIS DIFFDIR FUNNY NUM SEE WHEREIS DOUBLE GETNAME PI SETENV WHOAMI DRIBBLE GETS PI34 SOELIM XSTR # Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA06382 for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:37:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 9 09:38:15 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:38:15 +1100 (EST) Subject: FAQ of Archive of PDP-11 Unix Message-ID: <199803082338.KAA08954@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, I'm starting up a FAQ on the archive of PDP-11 Unix stuff and how to use it. What I've got so far is at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/faq1.html but not yet linked to the other pages. I'm happy to take other questions. I'm _very_ happy to get answers! Answers will have attributions of course. This is a back burner thing, but I'll go back through the mail archive and see what I can come up with. Also note: I will add a table of contents to the top at some stage. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06469 for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:17:58 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 9 10:18:50 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:18:50 +1100 (EST) Subject: 11/04 floppy problems In-Reply-To: from Nickolai Zeldovich at "Mar 8, 98 07:13:08 pm" Message-ID: <199803090018.LAA09059@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Nickolai Zeldovich: > I'm having a somewhat interesting problem with my PDP-11.. I'm trying to > boot a 11/04 from a 8" floppy drive, but DX, DX0, and DX1 all make it hang > up (RUN light goes out). Would you know what this would mean? I'm not sure > if this question is really appropriate for the list, sicne it's not > UNIX-related, and I've had little luck with newsgroups (seems my newsfeed > is quite flaky). > > -- [ Nickolai Zeldovich // nickolai at zepa.net ] I'm punting this to the mailing list ONLY because Nickolai's news access is limited. Can someone help him with the problem? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA07686 for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:10:09 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se Mon Mar 9 19:11:02 1998 From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:11:02 +0100 (MET) Subject: 11/04 floppy problems In-Reply-To: <199803090018.LAA09059@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: NIkolai! Your problem MIGHT be because somebody shuffled the cards for you! There are some classical caveats when it comes to the UNIBUS based system. a) There must be an uninterrupted grant chain all the way and no holes. b) There are two types of slots. DMA (also called a MUD or Modified Unibus Device) and NON DMA. Default is non DMA. To enable DMA you cut a strap on the wirewrapped backplane. (*cringe*)... This suggests that there are also two types of GRANT cards. One resembling a dual QBUS grant card but with green handles and one very small "playing card type" single card with no handle that can be (with force) inserted backwards and thus burn the bus. c) There must be a terminator card in the last position of the chain. I am at a customer site right now and do not have access to my library so I can not be more specific.. If you have any documentation handy, you should be able to use above information and find the exact information you need. If not, you should be able to locate the faulting device by "shortening" the bus. You start with CPU and a mem card and install the terminator directly after. See if you can deposit and examine stuff into RAM. Then put in the device directly after the last MEM card and test it and so forth. Eventually the system will fail and you have located the problem. Either remove the problem or get back to us. =) Note: With no documentation of the devices in question you have more problems. Some UNIBUSes are standard UNIBUSes. Others are special UNIBUSes for special device configurations. The UNIBUS PDP11 (or VAX) is a challange for the technically interested person. =) Oh yes... You can bypass devices by using the UNIBUS cable (a long stiff white flat cable with UNIBUS connectors in each end). Each UNIBUS sub bus is connected with the previous with a UNIBUS continuity card that consists of a short UNIBUS cable and two dual cards joined together to form one unit. If you want to bypass a device, take out the continuity from the start and end of the device, install a UNIBUS cable at the last position of the previous sub bus system and the first in the sub bus after the bypassed device. UNIBUS cables, continuity cards and grants (and also the terminator) all go in the same position across the bus and in no other place. One error here and it is BURN baby BURN! =/ /Lars On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Nickolai Zeldovich: > > I'm having a somewhat interesting problem with my PDP-11.. I'm trying to > > boot a 11/04 from a 8" floppy drive, but DX, DX0, and DX1 all make it hang > > up (RUN light goes out). Would you know what this would mean? I'm not sure > > if this question is really appropriate for the list, sicne it's not > > UNIX-related, and I've had little luck with newsgroups (seems my newsfeed > > is quite flaky). > > > > -- [ Nickolai Zeldovich // nickolai at zepa.net ] > > I'm punting this to the mailing list ONLY because Nickolai's news access > is limited. Can someone help him with the problem? > > Warren > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA08220 for pups-liszt; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 23:45:12 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 9 22:45:16 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:45:16 GMT Subject: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source? In-Reply-To: Tim Shoppa "V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source?" (Mar 8, 11:35) References: <9803081935.AA26778@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <9803091245.ZM21377@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Mar 8, 11:35, Tim Shoppa wrote: > A non-legal question: the system identifies itself as "v6" when it > boots, but there is a "v7.h" header file in the /sys directory. > Is this maybe really a V7 system? Or maybe from an era when the > trnasition from V6 to V7 was being made? Datestamps on the files > are from 1982. That would cerainly put it well into the v7 era 9by thre years). But there were several differences, as I'm sure Tim knows, and some people didn't change. I'd guess this one has back-ported some v7 stuff onto what was otherwise a 'legacy' system. I think the RL02 drivers were written in Boston for v7 (or am I thinking of the RX02 driver?). Maybe v7.h has something to do with allowing this driver to be used? > Note that although the system was generated for a 11/23, it's > running on a 11/73. The fact that it has more memory than "max" seems > to confuse the system horribly when it goes into multi-user mode. Short > of doing a lobotomy, is there any way to get around this? I don't know, but if anyone else does, please tell! My 11/23 system has a kernel panic if I try to run it on an 11/73 (by swapping out the CPU board). > # LS GAMES > ADVENT CHESS CUBIC TTT WUMP > BJ CORE MOO TTT.K WUMPUS Interesting... ADVENT is missing from my v7. Any chance of a copy? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA09225 for pups-liszt; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:37:15 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Mar 10 03:37:04 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:37:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source? In-Reply-To: <9803091245.ZM21377@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Mar 9, 98 12:45:16 pm Message-ID: <9803091737.AA13243@alph02.triumf.ca> > That would cerainly put it well into the v7 era 9by thre years). But there > were several differences, as I'm sure Tim knows, and some people didn't change. > I'd guess this one has back-ported some v7 stuff onto what was otherwise a > 'legacy' system. > > I think the RL02 drivers were written in Boston for v7 (or am I thinking of the > RX02 driver?). Maybe v7.h has something to do with allowing this driver to be > used? Well, this is what V7.h says: #DEFINE V7CODE 7 /* IF COMPILING V7 COMPATIBLE CODE */ #DEFINE V7 (U.U_SYSTEM == V7CODE) and this is what a config file looks like: # CAT CONFIG.MLAB # CONFIGURATION FOR EXTENDED CARE PATHOLOGY SYSTEM WITH RL CONSOLE SYS MEM RL RX2 ROOT RL 0 SWAP RL 0 19000 1480 CPU 23 FPU DL 5 LTC It also looks like there's support in the sources for 11/34's and 11/45's, in addition to the 11/23: # CD CONF # LS ADEVS C.C DATA.S L-MLAB.S MAKE-MLAB BDEVS C.TM F23.O L.S MAKEFILE CDEVS C23.C F23.S L23.S MKCONF.C MAKEFILE CONFIG F45.S M23.S SYSFIX C-MLAB.C CONFIG.AWK KDWORD.S M34.S SYSFIX.C C-MLAB.O CONFIG.MLAB L-MLAB.O M45.S > > Note that although the system was generated for a 11/23, it's > > running on a 11/73. The fact that it has more memory than "max" seems > > to confuse the system horribly when it goes into multi-user mode. Short > > of doing a lobotomy, is there any way to get around this? > > I don't know, but if anyone else does, please tell! My 11/23 system has a > kernel panic if I try to run it on an 11/73 (by swapping out the CPU board). Maybe it is the CPU and not the memory that's causing the problem - I was probably a bit premature in jumping to the conculsion about the memory (perhaps my 2.9BSD experiences aren't applicable here.) > > # LS GAMES > > ADVENT CHESS CUBIC TTT WUMP > > BJ CORE MOO TTT.K WUMPUS > > Interesting... ADVENT is missing from my v7. Any chance of a copy? Sure. Warren's already moved the RL02 image to Boot_images in the PUPS archive, and at some point someone (me? Warren?) might find enough copious free time to strip out the sources. The big problem with this V6 system at the moment is that I can't find the 'mount' executable. I suspect that the system manager might have removed or (more likely) renamed it as a security precaution. (Security? Unix? well, you can try...) I'd like to mount one of the user disks on a second RL drive, but without 'mount' this is hard. Anyone have any ideas? "/dev/rl1" is real and works fine, as I can "od /dev/rl1" without a problem. # MOUNT /DEV/RL0 /MNT MOUNT NOT FOUND # CD / # LS -A . ETC MNT RX UNIX.RXRL .. FIXOWNER MNT1 SRC UNIX.TMP .MAIL HMBOOT MNT2 SYS USR .PROFILE JUNK NAMES TMP V7BOOT A.OUT LIB OLDUNIX UNIX X BIN LIB.OLD OLDUNIX.25.7 UNIX.JONES XLIB DEV LOOP RLUBOOT UNIX.MLAB # CAT .PROFILE V7=YES UMASK 002 HOME=\'PWD\' : MAIL=$HOME/.MAIL B=$HOME/BIN PATH=:$B:/BIN:/USR/BIN:/USR/BIN/V7:/USR/UCB PS1="$ " UPTIME : 'ECHO -N "FORTUNE: "; /USR/GAMES/FORTUNE' # LS /BIN A DB GREP NEWGRP SH.V7 ANVART DC HELP NM SH.YALE AR DCHECK ICHECK OAS SIZE AR-NEW DD IF OCC SORT AR-OLD DF KILL OD STRIP AS DISKCOPY L OLDCHEF STTY AT DISKCOPY.OLD LD OLS SU AWK DSW LINK OPR SUM BAS DU LIST OXY SYNC BYE DUMP LN PASSWD TIME CAT E LOGIN PGS TP CC ECHO LPR PR TP.OLD CDB ED LS PS TS CHGRP EXIT LST RESTOR TTY CHMOD F MAIL REW UNIQ CHOWN FC MAKE RM WHO CLRI FF MENU RMDIR WRITE CMP FILE MKDIR SH XTP CP FS MV SH.BELL XY CSH FTN NCC SH.DEFAULT DATE GOTO NCHECK SH.TEST # LS /USR/BIN ! DIFF GSI NCCC SPLIT STTY DIFFDIR HACK NICE SRCCOM AC DITTO HEAD NMS STARTLP ARCV DOSCVT HEX NOHUP STOP ASA DOSDT IGNORE NOPARITY STRINGS BANNER DOUBLE INDEX NROFF SYSMON BASIC DOWN INFO OFFLINE TABEXP BATCHCARDS DRIBBLE IUL ONLINE TABS BC DSTAT JOIN PARITY TB BCD DTC KWT PF TCON BCPIO DTCOPY LABELS PFE TEE BCPL DTFS LAST PFSH TOASA BEEP ENTER LC PFWAIT TOUCH C EOT LENGTH PG TR CAL ERASE LIBGEN PLOT TRIM CAP EXPAND LIBSORT PLOTTER TSET CCC FDB LINES PP TT CHDATE FED LINKER PPR TX4010 CHEF FERR LISP PROF TXOFF CHK FEXPR LOADVFU PT TXON CKDIR FIELDS LOC PWD TYPO CLEAR FILDES LOCK QP U2L COL FIND LONG RADPK UC COLS FIX LPI RC UNARCV COMM FIXLEN M2U READPPT V0CVT COST FMT M2U.OLD REFS V7CVT CPALL FMT_INDEX M6 ROFF VT125PLOT CPIO FMTCARD MAN RTDT WC CREF FMTINDEX MARK RTLD WHERE CRPOST FMTSORT MESG RULER WIPE CRYPT FOLD MNTBIN RUN WRAP CS FORM MPLOT RX2FMT XFS CS2 FSIZE MPLOT.HIDDEN RXFMT ZERO CTL GAMES MTS SA CVTRT GENDATE MTSFS SKULK DBL GRAB MVDIR SLEEP # LS /USR/BIN/V7 /USR/BIN/V7 NOT FOUND # LS /USR/UCB MAIL DRIBBLE.OUT GREP PIX SSP APROPOS EX HEAD PRINT STRINGS ASTAGS EX.OLD IUL PRINTENV TMP CKDIR EXPAND LAST PTAGS TOD CLEAR EYACC LOCK PX TRA CLOCK FLEECE LS PX34 TSET CR3 FMT.UCB MAKEWHATIS PXP UNTMP CTAGS FOLD MAN PXP34 VI CXREF FROM MKSTR PXREF W DAYTIME FTAGS MSGS RESET WHATIS DIFFDIR FUNNY NUM SEE WHEREIS DOUBLE GETNAME PI SETENV WHOAMI DRIBBLE GETS PI34 SOELIM XSTR Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA10124 for pups-liszt; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:24:59 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Mar 10 07:24:49 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:24:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source? In-Reply-To: <9803091737.AA13243@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 9, 98 09:37:04 am Message-ID: <9803092124.AA07849@alph02.triumf.ca> > The big problem with this V6 system at the moment is that I can't find > the 'mount' executable. Many thanks to Pete Turnbull, who pointed me towards /etc/mount. Some of the "user" disks appear to be corrupted. Anyone care to tell me where to find fsck? Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA10206 for pups-liszt; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:48:46 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From milov at toes.its.uwlax.edu Tue Mar 10 07:52:20 1998 From: milov at toes.its.uwlax.edu (Milo Velimirovic) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 98 15:52:20 -0600 Subject: Whither fsck (was: Re: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source?) References: <9803092124.AA07849@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <9803092152.AA02902@toes.its.uwlax.edu> Tim, fsck doesn't exist yet in the V6 world. you want icheck and dcheck... they need at least one argument which should be the name of a raw device containing the filesystem you want to check. (Using the block device anme will work but be much, much slower.) --- Milo Velimirovic Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030 Information Technology Services -- Network Services University of Wisconsin - La Crosse La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W Begin forwarded message: > >X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From: Tim Shoppa >Subject: Re: V6 RL02 images. Binary or Source? >To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au >Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:24:49 -0800 (PST) >In-Reply-To: <9803091737.AA13243 at alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 9, 98 09:37:04 am >Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au > >> The big problem with this V6 system at the moment is that I can't find >> the 'mount' executable. > >Many thanks to Pete Turnbull, who pointed me towards /etc/mount. > >Some of the "user" disks appear to be corrupted. Anyone care to tell >me where to find fsck? > >Tim. > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA10827 for pups-liszt; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:39:57 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Mar 10 10:40:59 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:40:59 +1100 (EST) Subject: Just in from Dion Message-ID: <199803100040.LAA10668@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Guys, Just got this in from Dion re the license. No word as to date of availability yet, I did say `we're waiting....' though. I sent Dion a draft set of instructions on how to get the license. Part of his return email goes: > 4. For AUTHORIZED COUNTRY, I suggest writing: > > All countries not excluded by Section 5.2 Yes, very good. I have no idea how to find that damned govt list. I think our reference is out of date but who > 5. You need to list the DESIGNATED CPUs. [Do we? I can't see where > on the draft to fill this in] If you have PDP-11 hardware, > list the number and models of PDP-11s, e.g No, it doesnt say that. It says that on our request, you must furnish the list, but we dont demand it up front. In practice, I doubt we will ever ask anyone to furnish this, much less do an on-site visit. Of course, it might be a fun way to win a trip to Australia if I volunteer to go on a tour to see that our highly valuable intellectual property is being treated right... ;-) That sounds good to me. Warren From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 11 13:16:06 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:16:06 +1100 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 UNIX Src Licenses Available Message-ID: <199803110316.OAA14910@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Hello, you are receiving this mail for one of the following reasons: + you signed a petition urging SCO to make source licenses for PDP-11 UNIX available + your filled in a survey detailing what you wanted in such a source license + you are a member of the PUPS mailing list I am glad to announce that, as a result of the petition, SCO have made source licenses available for most versions of PDP-11 UNIX. The essential details of the license are: Covers research Editions 1 to 7, and 32V. Covers derived versions of UNIX which ran on PDP-11s. Specifically excludes System V onwards. Full source code, binaries and documentation. Personal, non-commercial use. Exchange of sources and modifications to other licensees. Non-disclosure to unlicensed people. The cost is US$100. Details on how to obtain the license are available at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/getlicense.html SCO will not ship any media with this license. The PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society has a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs and tapes in order to distribute the PUPS Archive of old Unix software to licensed people. Details about this archive are available at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pupsfaq.html We would like a few more licensed people to volunteer to create CD-ROMs and tapes, to take the load off the existing volunteers. Finally, none of this would have been possible without the immense support which we received from Dion Johnson within SCO. He battled with the legal eagles over a period of 18 months or so to make the license available. If you can, please send Dion a thank you card at the address The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. 400 Encinal Street Santa Cruz, CA 95061-1900 United States of America Attention: Dion Johnson This will be a surprise for him, but I'm sure he will appreciate your thanks. In turn, I would like to thank you all for your support. Without the signatures on the petition, none of this would have been possible. Warren Toomey wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA15239 for pups-liszt; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:50:50 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 11 13:52:01 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:52:01 +1100 (EST) Subject: SCO PDP-11 Licenses Available Message-ID: <199803110352.OAA15256@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Most of you on the PUPS mailing list should have received notice that SCO are now selling the PDP-11 Unix source licenses we have been waiting so long for. If not, details are on the PUPS web page, and at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/getlicense.html We only have 6 volunteers ready to write media (CDs, tapes) holding the archive of PDP-11 Unix material. Anybody else want to volunteer? SCO will let us set up password-protected ftp sites. I will set up the PUPS archive here for password-protected ftp. Would anybody else be prepared to mirror this and also provide password-protected ftp? I'd like one in the US and one in Europe. Cheers all, Warren From grog at lemis.com Wed Mar 11 16:07:35 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:37:35 +1030 Subject: Does anybody have an assembler in C? Message-ID: <19980311163735.37825@freebie.lemis.com> I'm trying to set up a cross-development environment for 2.11BSD (running under 4.4BSD), and I've run into trouble because the assembler's written in, well, assembler. It would be Real Convenient if I could find an assembler written in C. Does anybody know of one? Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA17387 for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 02:40:44 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca Thu Mar 12 01:29:23 1998 From: kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca (Ken Wellsch) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:29:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Does anybody have an assembler in C? In-Reply-To: <19980311163735.37825@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Mar 11, 98 04:37:35 pm Message-ID: <199803111529.KAA26566@math.uwaterloo.ca> Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader. I could swear the assember was in C - I am sure because I recall fighting with all the code to port it a long time ago to another UNIX box. Now I was the jerk that kept saying "gee that C compiler sure looks a lot like the V6/V7 C compiler" (yeah I know they are different - I never bothered to go into the details of precisely which one it matched more closely). If Tim does not still have the contents I know I've got it archived away and can fetch that part for you. -- Ken | From owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 11 01:16:07 1998 | | I'm trying to set up a cross-development environment for 2.11BSD | (running under 4.4BSD), and I've run into trouble because the | assembler's written in, well, assembler. It would be Real Convenient | if I could find an assembler written in C. Does anybody know of one? | | Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA17547 for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 03:36:44 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Mar 12 02:36:33 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:36:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Does anybody have an assembler in C? In-Reply-To: <199803111529.KAA26566@math.uwaterloo.ca> from "Ken Wellsch" at Mar 11, 98 10:29:23 am Message-ID: <9803111636.AA08101@alph02.triumf.ca> > Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle > that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader. Vaguely. I'll try to track down the exact reference - I'm not sure whether your referring to the DECUS C package or not. > code to port it a long time ago to another UNIX box. Now I was the jerk > that kept saying "gee that C compiler sure looks a lot like the V6/V7 > C compiler" (yeah I know they are different - I never bothered to go into > the details of precisely which one it matched more closely). I seem to recall that the DECUS C compiler is written in MACRO-11 assembly - and pretty much a straight translation of the V6/V7 C compiler - but with different run time libraries for RSX and RT-11. Does this ring a bell? Or am I completely on the wrong track? Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA18056 for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 05:21:10 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Mar 12 04:21:00 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:21:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Does anybody have an assembler in C? In-Reply-To: <9803111636.AA08101@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 11, 98 08:36:33 am Message-ID: <9803111821.AA19967@alph02.triumf.ca> > > Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle > > that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader. > > Vaguely. I'll try to track down the exact reference - I'm not > sure whether your referring to the DECUS C package or not. Taking a quick look at the DECUS C package, I see that isn't the answer. There's an "as"-style assembler there written in MACRO-11, though :-). I think you were referring to the XINU-11 package available by anonymous ftp from sunsite: ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu in particular, if you look in ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu/ unpacked/src/cmd/as11 you'll find the "as11" sources in C, specifically written for BSD4.3 on a VAX. I have to admit that I'm not fully aware of the copyrights regarding the XINU package. If research shows that this is freely distributable, is this something we'd want to distribute through the PUPS archive, Warren? Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA18071 for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 05:23:08 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca Thu Mar 12 04:22:47 1998 From: kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca (Ken Wellsch) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:22:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Does anybody have an assembler in C? In-Reply-To: <9803111636.AA08101@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 11, 98 08:36:33 am Message-ID: <199803111822.NAA31588@math.uwaterloo.ca> Tim, No, the DECUS C compiler is a very different kettle of fish. Sorry to be so vague - I can only go by memory now as all my archived info is on CD-ROM's at home. Back in the mid to late 80's a few folks made available a bundle put together by the folks at Purdue I think - I believe it was related to Dr. Comer (sp?) and the Xinu stuff - but this bundle was intended to provide a compiler environment on SunOS systems of the mid 80's to teach lower level system stuff - I've forgotten if it related to simulating an 11 or was instead just for a cross-compiler environment to build Xinu mini-kernels on faster platforms to then download to the LSI 11 testbed. One place I picked it up (via FTP) called it "sunchip.tar.Z" or similar, while another I think just called it "chip.tar.Z." I mentioned you only because I do remember grabbing it from your sunsite archive while you were still at Caltech and later sending e-mail WRT the licensing thing. -- Ken | From owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 11 11:45:28 1998 | | > Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle | > that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader. | | Vaguely. I'll try to track down the exact reference - I'm not | sure whether your referring to the DECUS C package or not. | | > code to port it a long time ago to another UNIX box. Now I was the jerk | > that kept saying "gee that C compiler sure looks a lot like the V6/V7 | > C compiler" (yeah I know they are different - I never bothered to go into | > the details of precisely which one it matched more closely). | | I seem to recall that the DECUS C compiler is written in MACRO-11 assembly - | and pretty much a straight translation of the V6/V7 C compiler - but | with different run time libraries for RSX and RT-11. Does | this ring a bell? Or am I completely on the wrong track? | | Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA18738 for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:24:26 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Thu Mar 12 06:25:03 1998 From: wkt at henry.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:25:03 +1100 (EST) Subject: Does anybody have an assembler in C? In-Reply-To: <9803111821.AA19967@alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Mar 11, 98 10:21:00 am" Message-ID: <199803112025.HAA16016@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Tim Shoppa: > I have to admit that I'm not fully aware of the copyrights regarding > the XINU package. If research shows that this is freely distributable, > is this something we'd want to distribute through the PUPS archive, > Warren? > > Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Xinu is freely distributable, as long as it's not sold as a competing product to Doug Comer's book. It's in the archive. Another solution for a assembler in C is some stuff I've got from a Russian, who `ported' either cc or pcc to a Sparc, as a cross-compiler. Greg, have a look in .miscfiles. If someone can make some order out of this, I'll put it in the archive. To the PUPS readers, there is a whole lot of stuff I've got but I haven't added into the PUPS ARchive as yet: + System V (SCO license doesn't include it) + copyright stuff I haven't cleared it's release yet + unsorted jumble Someone has to categorise this I could put the unsorted jumble into the PUPS Archive. Yes or no? P.S Woke up to a barrage of email today. Wading thru it.... Warren From grog at lemis.com Mon Mar 16 11:25:31 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:55:31 +1030 Subject: Where do you sign the SCO License agreement Message-ID: <19980316115531.52411@freebie.lemis.com> Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license agreement. Can anybody tell me? Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA11521 for pups-liszt; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:01:49 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 16 15:02:01 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:02:01 +1100 (EST) Subject: Where do you sign the SCO License agreement In-Reply-To: <19980316115531.52411@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 16, 98 11:55:31 am" Message-ID: <199803160502.QAA02064@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Greg Lehey: > Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US > customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license > agreement. Can anybody tell me? Should I put this in the getlicense web page? Warren F. The AUTHORIZED COUNTRY for this Agreement shall be ______________________. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties have caused this Agreement to be executed by their duly authorized representatives. LICENSEE: THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC. __________________________________ <--- Greg Lehey Mr Name Title __________________________________ <--- Your address Address __________________________________ Address __________________________________ Address __________________________________ By <---- Ignore, hangover from old AT&T licences where __________________________________ organisational license Print or Type Name and title (named above) is authorised by an individual (here) __________________________________ Phone and FAX, please <--- Phone, fax, email address __________________________________ Email address - required Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12553 for pups-liszt; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:40:49 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Mon Mar 16 15:40:15 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:10:15 +1030 Subject: Where do you sign the SCO License agreement In-Reply-To: <199803160502.QAA02064@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Mar 16, 1998 at 04:02:01PM +1100 References: <19980316115531.52411@freebie.lemis.com> <199803160502.QAA02064@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980316161015.07896@freebie.lemis.com> On Mon, 16 March 1998 at 16:02:01 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Greg Lehey: >> Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US >> customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license >> agreement. Can anybody tell me? > > Should I put this in the getlicense web page? A good idea, but... I hate to appear obtuse, but this doesn't tell me either. Are you saying I should sign where it says "By"? Greg > F. The AUTHORIZED COUNTRY for this Agreement shall be ______________________. > > IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties have caused this Agreement to be > executed by their duly authorized representatives. > > LICENSEE: THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC. > > __________________________________ <--- Greg Lehey Mr > Name Title > > __________________________________ <--- Your address > Address > > __________________________________ > Address > > __________________________________ > Address > > __________________________________ > By <---- Ignore, hangover from old > AT&T licences where > __________________________________ organisational license > Print or Type Name and title (named above) is authorised > by an individual (here) > __________________________________ > Phone and FAX, please <--- Phone, fax, email address > > __________________________________ > Email address - required Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12594 for pups-liszt; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:44:01 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 16 15:44:09 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:44:09 +1100 (EST) Subject: Where do you sign the SCO License agreement In-Reply-To: <19980316161015.07896@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 16, 98 04:10:15 pm" Message-ID: <199803160544.QAA02167@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Greg Lehey: > On Mon, 16 March 1998 at 16:02:01 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article by Greg Lehey: > >> Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US > >> customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license > >> agreement. Can anybody tell me? > > > > Should I put this in the getlicense web page? > > A good idea, but... > > I hate to appear obtuse, but this doesn't tell me either. Are you > saying I should sign where it says "By"? No, just fill in the top section. Leave the `by' section alone, as you ARE your own representative. The only time you'd fill out the bottom section is if you were buying a license for a company, e.g Sproggs Inc. 5 Looney road, SPOTSWOLD. NSW. 2001 by Warren Toomey etc etc etc. Hope this helps. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA12928 for pups-liszt; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:58:46 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From stacy at asia.uznet.net Mon Mar 16 17:00:16 1998 From: stacy at asia.uznet.net (Stacy Minkin) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:00:16 +0500 Subject: RQDX3 problems Message-ID: <199803160700.MAA00643@asia.Uznet.NET> Hi pdp people! Few days ago I wrote about my hardware problems and asked for hardware guru. Now I've solved some of them - I checked my backplane and it was 18-bits I wired insufficient A19-A21 signals and my CPU acessed memory and now it runs ok. But! I still do not know what happens to my RQDX3! I know that this question has little relation to UNIX and apologize for that. I hardly suspect circuitry fault but may be some other reasons. It looks like this: -My RQDX3 is now connected to simple 5-inch floppy drive when I power up the machine I see no activity on ANY pin of RQDX3 to RQDX SIG. DIST. 50-pin connector! I mean there is no triggering signals hence my floppy also does nothing. When I try to execute bootstrap or simply debug RQDX3 registers from console it looks like this: RESET CLR @#1772150 MOV #100000,@#1772152 ; controller passes INIT step 1 ; no ints enabled, no vector specified, ; UDA OWN bit set. Rings are zero length MOV #xxxxxx,@#1772152 ; controller passes INIT step 2 ; specifying low address bits MOV #0,@#1772152 ; controller passes INIT step 3 - specifying ; high address bits> Does anybody know what does it mean? I also have TMSCP TQK70 controller but no tape drive for it. When I try to run it there is absolutely similar situation - I think this happens each time [T]MSCP controller tries to powerup without any drives connected to it. So I'm looking for help from somebody who can give a hint about which signal should i check to assertain in absence of hardware fault. I have no drawings for RQDX3 neither user's guide. It can even be caused by wrong setting of switches/jumpers - I dont know. Stacy. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA14297 for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 02:41:35 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From djenner at halcyon.com Tue Mar 17 01:41:14 1998 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:41:14 -0800 Subject: Where do you sign the SCO License agreement References: <199803160544.QAA02167@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <350D481A.DAA7B5A4@halcyon.com> Greg, Since none of the responses seem to really answer your question, here's what I did: I signed my name on the very first line where it says "Name". I then printed my name on the line where it says "Print or Type Name". If this is incorrect, I guess I'll get it back! Dave Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article by Greg Lehey: > > On Mon, 16 March 1998 at 16:02:01 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > > > In article by Greg Lehey: > > >> Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, or maybe I don't understand US > > >> customs that well, but I can't work out where to sign the SCO license > > >> agreement. Can anybody tell me? > > > > > > Should I put this in the getlicense web page? > > > > A good idea, but... > > > > I hate to appear obtuse, but this doesn't tell me either. Are you > > saying I should sign where it says "By"? > > No, just fill in the top section. Leave the `by' section alone, as you > ARE your own representative. > > The only time you'd fill out the bottom section is if you were buying > a license for a company, e.g > > Sproggs Inc. > 5 Looney road, > SPOTSWOLD. NSW. 2001 > > by > > Warren Toomey > etc etc etc. > > Hope this helps. > > Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA15691 for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:45:45 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 17 08:45:19 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:45:19 -0500 Subject: V7 startup Message-ID: <199803162245.AA08767@world.std.com> Thanks to a member I now have V7 (supnik) Binary on RL02 to try out. Several questions: What hardware does it expect (besides RL02)? This is so I can configure the 11/73 or 11/23 as it expects. When I boot it on the 11/73 (1mb ram, RLV21, RX02, RQDX3(rd52/RX33), DLV11j currently) using RT-11 BOOT/FOREIGN I do get a "@" and it's not ODT. What commands do I issues to get going from there? Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA15720 for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:49:14 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Mar 17 08:49:32 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:49:32 +1100 (EST) Subject: V7 startup In-Reply-To: <199803162245.AA08767@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Mar 16, 98 05:45:19 pm" Message-ID: <199803162249.JAA02937@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Allison J Parent: > > Thanks to a member I now have V7 (supnik) Binary on RL02 to try out. > > Several questions: > > What hardware does it expect (besides RL02)? This is so I can configure > the 11/73 or 11/23 as it expects. Have a look at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pupsfaq.html > When I boot it on the 11/73 (1mb ram, RLV21, RX02, RQDX3(rd52/RX33), > DLV11j currently) using RT-11 BOOT/FOREIGN I do get a "@" and it's > not ODT. What commands do I issues to get going from there? Instructions are in Bob Supnik's emulator readme: 2.1.3 UNIX V7 UNIX V7 is contained on a single RL02 disk image. To boot UNIX: sim> set cpu 18b sim> set rl0 RL02 sim> att rl0 unix_v7_rl.dsk sim> boot rl0 @unix login: root password: pdp # ls -l Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA17274 for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:44:31 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 17 11:44:06 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:44:06 -0500 Subject: V7 startup Message-ID: <199803170144.AA16350@world.std.com> Thanks Warren, >>>>< @unix <<<<<<< THAT'S what I was trying to remember! Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17613 for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:06:14 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 17 13:05:52 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:05:52 -0500 Subject: V7 startup Message-ID: <199803170305.AA05406@world.std.com> Well v7 binary runs seemingly well on my 11/73 with the kitchen sink (the extra and unusable accouterments). It doesn't use much though! The Rl02 disk does have about 5mb space. One thing I'd like to do is have some additional storage other than the one RL02 drive I have. I figure that could easily be a RX02 but it's not obvious how to add that (to V7unix that is). The RQDX3/RD52 would be nice but I'll settle for a RX01/2. The other is the date is 1988... month and day are setable but year? Is there any way to get it to stay in 8/n/1 (my system(s) default) rather than 7/e/1. The last one bugged me some... there is no shutdown! To kill the system all I could do was make sure there weren't any excess processes running do a sync and hit restart. I assume this is ok as I use the same method for venix on the pro350, so far I haven't mashed that system. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17672 for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:15:10 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Mar 17 13:15:05 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:15:05 +1100 (EST) Subject: V7 startup In-Reply-To: <199803170305.AA05406@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Mar 16, 98 10:05:52 pm" Message-ID: <199803170315.OAA00560@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Allison J Parent: > One thing I'd like to do is have some additional storage other than the > one RL02 drive I have. I figure that could easily be a RX02 but it's not > obvious how to add that (to V7unix that is). The RQDX3/RD52 would be > nice but I'll settle for a RX01/2. The kernel you got probably doesn't have much else. I could build another kernel for you. Once you get the source license, you'll be able to do it youself! > The other is the date is 1988... month and day are setable but year? # man date DATE(1) DATE(1) NAME date - print and set the date SYNOPSIS date [ yymmddhhmm [ .ss ] ] DESCRIPTION If no argument is given, the current date and time are printed. If an argument is given, the current date is set. yy is the last two digits of the year; the first mm is the month number; dd is the day number in the month; hh is the hour number (24 hour system); the second mm is the minute number; .ss is optional and is the seconds. > Is there any way to get it to stay in 8/n/1 (my system(s) default) rather > than 7/e/1. What serial devices do you have? I think V7 expected hardwired things like KL-11s. Anyway, here's some of the stty(1) manual. SYNOPSIS stty [ option ... ] DESCRIPTION Stty sets certain I/O options on the current output termi- nal. With no argument, it reports the current settings of the options. The option strings are selected from the following set: even allow even parity -even disallow even parity odd allow odd parity -odd disallow odd parity 50 75 110 134 150 200 300 600 1200 1800 2400 4800 9600 exta extb Set terminal baud rate to the number given, if possible. (These are the speeds supported by the DH-11 interface). > The last one bugged me some... there is no shutdown! To kill the system > all I could do was make sure there weren't any excess processes running > do a sync and hit restart. I assume this is ok as I use the same method > for venix on the pro350, so far I haven't mashed that system. I think that's all you could do. Warren P.S Online mans at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/manpages.html Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA18069 for pups-liszt; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:27:38 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 17 14:27:18 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:27:18 -0500 Subject: V7 startup Message-ID: <199803170427.AA08842@world.std.com> Message-ID: <9803171757.ZM23764@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Mar 16, 22:05, Allison J Parent wrote: > Subject: Re: V7 startup > > Well v7 binary runs seemingly well on my 11/73 with the kitchen sink > (the extra and unusable accouterments). It doesn't use much though! > The Rl02 disk does have about 5mb space. > > One thing I'd like to do is have some additional storage other than the > one RL02 drive I have. I figure that could easily be a RX02 but it's not > obvious how to add that (to V7unix that is). The RQDX3/RD52 would be > nice but I'll settle for a RX01/2. I think I have the RX driver somewhere. Might take a while to find, though. > The other is the date is 1988... month and day are setable but year? Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but ISTR that the dateset at startup does just set MM/DD HH/MM and relies on reading the year last written in a file somewhere. If you run 'date' as root once the system is up, you can set the year as well. > The last one bugged me some... there is no shutdown! To kill the system > all I could do was make sure there weren't any excess processes running > do a sync and hit restart. I assume this is ok as I use the same method > for venix on the pro350, so far I haven't mashed that system. Mine has a script which includes a umount (you won't strictly need that for a single drive) and a sync or two, and a little message. It might have a 'kill -1 1' to take it to single-user mode. Other than that, just halt it after a sync. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA20559 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:07:31 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 18 06:07:09 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:07:09 -0500 Subject: V7 startup Message-ID: <199803172007.AA14559@world.std.com> from Ken Wellsch at "Mar 17, 98 10:00:36 am" Message-ID: <199803172059.HAA01365@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Ken Wellsch: [ Ken confirms that the Xinu distribution for the PDP-11 includes the sunchip package, which is a C compiler and assembler, all written in C ] > Chip is the "Cornell Hypothetical Instructional Processor." It has a > PDP11-like architecture and supports virtual memory. > description can be found in the technical report: > > To run the simulator for this machine, you need a 4.1bsd (or newer) Unix > system. The distribution also contains a development environment for CHIP > containing a C compiler, assembler, loader and various other tools. To > run the development software, you currently need Digital Equipment Corp. > VAX computer. However, with minimal effort, all of this software should > be able to run on any host with UNIX. > > [...] > > ----------------------------------- end of README -------------------- > > P.S. As I suspected and feared, > > % diff -r Trees/V7/usr/src/cmd/c Xinu/src/cmd/cc11 > > indicates the C compiler provided in all these archives (Xinu, > CHIP, sunCHIP) are directly derived from the V6/V7 compiler. So is the DECUS C compiler, I hear. Is there any native C compiler for the PDP-11 which isn't derived from V6/V7? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21294 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:39:24 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 18 07:39:18 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:39:18 +1100 (EST) Subject: Sunchip compiler -- how to get it. In-Reply-To: <9803172136.AA03640@toes.its.uwlax.edu> from Milo Velimirovic at "Mar 17, 98 03:36:20 pm" Message-ID: <199803172139.IAA01634@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Milo Velimirovic: > Postscript to previous note, > > Where might I obtain the sunCHIP C compiler for comparison purposes? You need to fetch the Xinu distribution. I haven't got time to unpack the compiler sections right now, but you can get the whole tarball at ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/incoming/DISTR.lsi.tar.gz Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23166 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:41:54 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 18 08:41:55 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:41:55 +1100 (EST) Subject: Real Origin of the DECUS C Compiler? In-Reply-To: <199803172238.RAA24010@link.link-systems.com> from Ken Wellsch at "Mar 17, 98 05:38:12 pm" Message-ID: <199803172241.JAA01741@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Ken Wellsch: > I wasn't aware the DECUS C compiler (written in assembler) took anything > from V6 and/or V7 but I may well be wrong. The DECUS C stuff had a > special interest to me back in the Waterloo days because I believe > a former U of Waterloo person wrote it long ago... Hmm, that's what I'd heard. Perhaps the person who told me this was wrong. Can anybody tell us the correct origins of the DECUS C compiler? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA23726 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:23:13 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 18 11:22:59 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:22:59 +1100 (EST) Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses Message-ID: <199803180122.MAA02264@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11 licenses. The front says: I am LEGALLY CONTAMINATED by UNIX The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt. Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */ Sound good? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA23861 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:47:59 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Wed Mar 18 11:47:42 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:17:42 +1030 Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses In-Reply-To: <199803180122.MAA02264@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 12:22:59PM +1100 References: <199803180122.MAA02264@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980318121742.30724@freebie.lemis.com> On Wed, 18 March 1998 at 12:22:59 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11 > licenses. The front says: > > I am > LEGALLY > CONTAMINATED > by UNIX It's a nice start, but it doesn't really demonstrate the historical nature. > The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt. > Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */ That sounds good. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA24022 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:23:03 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From emu at ecubics.com Wed Mar 18 12:33:46 1998 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:33:46 -0700 Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses Message-ID: <19980318022245.AAA19033@1Cust202.tnt13.dfw5.da.uu.net> Hi Warren ... ---------- > From: Warren Toomey > To: PDP Unix Preservation > Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses > Date: Tuesday, March 17, 1998 6:22 PM > > I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11 > licenses. The front says: > > I am > LEGALLY > CONTAMINATED > by UNIX > > The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt. > Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */ Do i need the SCO source license for this t-shirt ???? ;-)))) > > Sound good? > > yes Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA24057 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:42:36 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 18 12:42:38 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:42:38 +1100 (EST) Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses In-Reply-To: <19980318022245.AAA19033@1Cust202.tnt13.dfw5.da.uu.net> from emanuel stiebler at "Mar 17, 98 07:33:46 pm" Message-ID: <199803180242.NAA02386@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> > > I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11 > > licenses. The front says: > > > > I am > > LEGALLY > > CONTAMINATED > > by UNIX > > > > The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt. > > In the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */ > > Do i need the SCO source license for this t-shirt ???? ;-)))) Yes, of course you will. You will also have to kill anybody who attempts to read the back. Greg Lehey also commented: > It's a nice start, but it doesn't really demonstrate the historical nature. Hmm, how can we rectify this? How about a list of versions covered by the SCO License, arranged randomly around the `I am LEGALLY CONTAMINATED by Unix' on the front? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24130 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:07:12 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From joerg at krdl.org.sg Wed Mar 18 12:58:21 1998 From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg Micheel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:58:21 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Real Origin of the DECUS C Compiler? Message-ID: <199803180258.KAA02180@iti.gov.sg> # In article by Ken Wellsch: # > I wasn't aware the DECUS C compiler (written in assembler) took anything # > from V6 and/or V7 but I may well be wrong. The DECUS C stuff had a # > special interest to me back in the Waterloo days because I believe # > a former U of Waterloo person wrote it long ago... # # Hmm, that's what I'd heard. Perhaps the person who told me this was wrong. # Can anybody tell us the correct origins of the DECUS C compiler? One thing I can tell for sure: the DECUS C Compiler and the K&R CC are completely different in their origins. I'm about 90% sure the DECUS XCC is written in MACRO-11. The reason I'm so sure is because we were looking at a suitable C compiler to run on our 11/34 back in 1989 and we first mungled with the DECUS XCC. But this one had several deficiencies, among them I remember lack of blocks within functions, local variable initialization, difficulties with typedefs/structs. Maybe, Harti could tell more. We were looking into Johnson's pcc, but this one turned out to be a too big piece of work and to slow to run on our 128 KWord machine. Harti tried to port the Whitesmith CC from RT11, and it ran, but there were deficiencies with the RT emulation, so we dropped that. Finally, we took the K&R UNIX CC and reworked it so that it would pass the DECUS XCC to produce the stage one. We wrote our own unix assembler supporting the RSX object file format from scratch. Later, we recompiled the K&R CC on RSX with itself. This system became our workhorse for the next 2 years, the compiler is still amazingly fast, both in terms of runtime and the code being produced. (Quoted: Harti) So here are the 4 different original sources of C compilers for the 11, though, admittedly, 2 of them would run on DEC's original OS, not on UNIX, which I guess, makes them somewhat irrelevant to PUPS. Am I right here ? (Where do we draw the boundary ?) Joerg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24152 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:09:56 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From joerg at krdl.org.sg Wed Mar 18 13:00:59 1998 From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg Micheel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:00:59 +0800 (SGT) Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses Message-ID: <199803180300.LAA02265@iti.gov.sg> Warren writes: # I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11 # licenses. The front says: # # I am # LEGALLY # CONTAMINATED # by UNIX # # The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt. # Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */ Hey, hey! Gotta make a reference to the original artwork! :-) Joerg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24169 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:13:06 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 18 13:13:09 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:13:09 +1100 (EST) Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses In-Reply-To: <199803180300.LAA02265@iti.gov.sg> from Joerg Micheel at "Mar 18, 98 11:00:59 am" Message-ID: <199803180313.OAA02583@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Joerg Micheel: > Warren writes: > > # I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11 > # licenses. The front says: > # > # I am > # LEGALLY > # CONTAMINATED > # by UNIX > # > # The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt. > # Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */ > > Hey, hey! Gotta make a reference to the original artwork! :-) > > Joerg I should say (and Joerg reminds me) that he & Harti sent me a t-shirt a couple of years ago with a copy of boot/login sequence of V7 on the front, and the section of the V6 kernel with the comment above on the back. I wear it quite a bit, and my fiancee likes it too, but probably for other reasons. Thanks Joerg! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24256 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:49:47 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From joerg at krdl.org.sg Wed Mar 18 13:40:24 1998 From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg Micheel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:40:24 +0800 (SGT) Subject: T-shirt for SCO Unix Licenses Message-ID: <199803180340.LAA04283@iti.gov.sg> # > # I had this idea for a t-shirt to celebrate the release of the SCO PDP-11 # > # licenses. The front says: # > # # > # I am # > # LEGALLY # > # CONTAMINATED # > # by UNIX # > # # > # The back has as much kernel source code as you can print on a t-shirt. # > # Near the middle is the comment /* You are not expected to understand this */ # > # > Hey, hey! Gotta make a reference to the original artwork! :-) # > # I should say (and Joerg reminds me) that he & Harti sent me a t-shirt # a couple of years ago with a copy of boot/login sequence of V7 on the # front, and the section of the V6 kernel with the comment above on the # back. I wear it quite a bit, and my fiancee likes it too, but probably # for other reasons. The /* You are not expected to understand this */ is also on the second page of Peter Salus' A Quater Century of UNIX, explaining a lot of folklore behind the UNIX history, including things like "a tape was found on the street to contain ...". The "contamination" term is (as far as I can tell) originated at Berkeley. When USL sued UCB for violating AT&T UNIX copyrights, it became apparent, that anyone ever having had a look at the original sources would be "infected" and be disallowed to distribute code that vaguely resembles anything in UNIX. Kirk McKusick then showed up with "Mentally contaminated" stickers for everyone attending the 4.4BSD Kernel Internals course at the Winter 1993 USENIX Conference, since he would present us - guess, what - source code! (of 4.4BSD) I still have the sticker somewhere in my collection. Joerg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA24298 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:07:20 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 18 14:07:23 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:07:23 +1100 (EST) Subject: Mental contamination (was t-shirts) In-Reply-To: <199803180340.LAA04283@iti.gov.sg> from Joerg Micheel at "Mar 18, 98 11:40:24 am" Message-ID: <199803180407.PAA02670@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Joerg Micheel: > The /* You are not expected to understand this */ is also on the second > page of Peter Salus' A Quater Century of UNIX, explaining a lot of folklore > behind the UNIX history, including things like "a tape was found on the > street to contain ...". Yes, I'd love to lay my hands on the `50 bugs' tape. For those who don't have Peter Salus' book (get out there & buy it!), this tape had fixes to V6, but the lawyers prevented Bell Labs from distributing it. So, someone `found' it lying in the street and that's how the patches found their way out of the Labs. >The "contamination" term is (as far as I can tell) originated at Berkeley. >Kirk McKusick showed up with "Mentally contaminated" stickers for everyone >attending the 4.4BSD Kernel Internals course at the Winter 1993 USENIX >Conference, since he would present us - guess, what - source code! (of 4.4BSD) > > I still have the sticker somewhere in my collection. I got one of the `Free the Berkeley 4.4' t-shirts. Good stuff. Kirk's the guy who is working on making the 4.xBSD releases available on CD. Please don't hassle him about it; I'll do that 8-) I've informed him that the SCO license covers 32V. Therefore, a lot of people will soon become eligible to receive 4.xBSD. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA24465 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:59:25 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 18 14:59:06 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:59:06 -0500 Subject: V7 startup Message-ID: <199803180459.AA20873@world.std.com> That reminds me. Why can't the 11/73 boot the unix RL pack directly from console boot dialog? The system boots RSTS and RT-11 packs. Is the boot block munged/missing? I might add it boots fine using boot/foreign from rt11. It's a curiousity as having RT on floppy or HD is not a big thing for me. But if it can be fixed that would be an improvement. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA26001 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 02:17:50 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Mar 19 01:17:18 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:17:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: V7 startup In-Reply-To: <199803180459.AA20873@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Mar 17, 98 11:59:06 pm Message-ID: <9803181517.AA25259@alph02.triumf.ca> > That reminds me. Why can't the 11/73 boot the unix RL pack directly from > console boot dialog? The system boots RSTS and RT-11 packs. Is the boot > block munged/missing? I might add it boots fine using boot/foreign from > rt11. The 11/73 firmware bootstrap expects the boot block to conform to certain standards specified by DEC in the early/mid-80's. In particular, the bootstrap must begin with a NOP, but there are some other requirements I don't recall at the moment. The toggle-in bootstraps that DEC supplied didn't do any such checks (who'd want to toggle tha check in everytime, anyway?), they just read block 0 to location 0 and jump to it (well, some also assume things about the SP going somewhere reasonable, and sometimes certain register locations set to certain things.) And RT-11's BOOT/FOR doesn't make any such checks, either. > It's a curiousity as having RT on floppy or HD is not a big thing for me. > But if it can be fixed that would be an improvement. You can either rewrite the 11/73 firmware to not do the check, or you can rewrite the V7 boot block so it conforms to DEC's standard. The RL02 is a particularly stupid device and requires an inordinately large bootstrap, so there may not be a lot of free room in the V7 boot block. You can also stick a "toggle-in" RL02 bootstrap into RAM via ODT and execute that. But I've decded that for me, the solution of RT's BOOT/FOR is the best, just as you seem to have :-). Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA28048 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:27:26 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Mar 19 12:27:07 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:27:07 +1100 (EST) Subject: What's TENIX?? In-Reply-To: <199803190143.CAA28649@pancake.pdc.kth.se> from Harald Barth at "Mar 19, 98 02:43:13 am" Message-ID: <199803190227.NAA04067@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Harald Barth: > One PDP-11 I have (and don't quite understand the hardware of) calls itself > Tektronix 8562. In that box (43x60x30cm) you find > LSI-11/73 (only part made by DIGITAL) > Controller with > 8'' floppy > 40Mb MFM disk with TENIX (binary of some kind of V7 Unix) > Controller with > 10 ttys Hmm, I haven't heard of Tenix before. I might punt this onto the mailing list to see if anybody can identify it. Any ideas, people?? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28280 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:44:01 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shsrms at erols.com Thu Mar 19 13:40:55 1998 From: shsrms at erols.com (Sheila H.//Elwood Blues) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:40:55 -0500 Subject: What's TENIX?? References: <199803190227.NAA04067@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <351093C7.5B96@erols.com> Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article by Harald Barth: > > One PDP-11 I have (and don't quite understand the hardware of) calls itself > > Tektronix 8562. In that box (43x60x30cm) you find > > LSI-11/73 (only part made by DIGITAL) > > Controller with > > 8'' floppy > > 40Mb MFM disk with TENIX (binary of some kind of V7 Unix) > > Controller with > > 10 ttys > > Hmm, I haven't heard of Tenix before. I might punt this onto the > mailing list to see if anybody can identify it. > > Any ideas, people?? > > Warren Tenex was a PDP10 (aka DECSystem 10/20) operating system. Some 10s had 11s as consoles. bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA03459 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 22:07:40 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From haba at pdc.kth.se Fri Mar 20 21:06:44 1998 From: haba at pdc.kth.se (Harald Barth) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:06:44 +0100 Subject: What's TNIX (Was: What's TENIX??) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:40:55 -0500" References: <351093C7.5B96@erols.com> Message-ID: <199803201106.MAA00394@pancake.pdc.kth.se> Hi, I wrote to Warren: > > > One PDP-11 I have (and don't quite understand the hardware of) calls itself > > > Tektronix 8562. In that box (43x60x30cm) you find > > > LSI-11/73 (only part made by DIGITAL) > > > Controller with > > > 8'' floppy > > > 40Mb MFM disk with TENIX (binary of some kind of V7 Unix) > > > Controller with > > > 10 ttys Warren wrote: > > Hmm, I haven't heard of Tenix before. I might punt this onto the > > mailing list to see if anybody can identify it. shsrms at erols.com wrote: > Tenex was a PDP10 (aka DECSystem 10/20) operating system. > Some 10s had 11s as consoles. The Tektronix manuals say "Tektronix Unix" and "TNIX". Looks like I've to boot the box and have a closer look at the actual software. I'm quite sure that it is some kind of v7. Unfortunately, it's just binaries. I don't think this should be confused with Tenex and/or PDP10s which had PDP11s and PDP8s as I/O processors in different places. Harald. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA08866 for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:45:22 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From haba at pdc.kth.se Sun Mar 22 11:44:17 1998 From: haba at pdc.kth.se (Harald Barth) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 02:44:17 +0100 Subject: Two different 2.11? Message-ID: <199803220144.CAA02181@pancake.pdc.kth.se> Started to get 2.11BSD working on emulator and 11/70. So far: Started emulator taken from: ftp://haba at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02/ Made kernel on emulator which supports the actual hardware: DELUA at non standard addr, RA81, RL02 Moved boot RL02 to 11/70 with RSTS/E Made bootable RA81 on 11/70 Untar:ed usr from ftp://haba at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD/file6.tar.gz ....And now the binaries from that tar file crash with "unknown system call" However, the binaries distributed in the disk images work. Any clues? Harald. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA09210 for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:23:37 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From sms at moe.2bsd.com Sun Mar 22 14:23:15 1998 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:23:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Two different 2.11? Message-ID: <199803220423.UAA08735@moe.2bsd.com> Greetings - No, there is only 1 2.11BSD (in the sense that there are NOT competing versions or distributions). What happened I believe is that the Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02 is older than the files in Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD. I have not looked at the Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02 files to determine when they were created (what patch level, etc.). On your RL02 system what do the first two or three lines of /VERSION? Anyhow, between the time that the 2.11_on_rl02 images were created (I did not create them) and December-1997/January-1998 several new system calls were created _AND_ the entire system was recompiled and relinked. That is why you can NOT use binaries from the Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD with earlier kernels. There is UPWARD compatibility (old binaries can run on new kernels) but not backwards compatibility. What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/ 2.11BSD. Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com > From: Harald Barth > > Started to get 2.11BSD working on emulator and 11/70. So far: > > Started emulator taken from: > ftp://haba at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Boot_Images/2.11_on_rl02/ > > Made kernel on emulator which supports the actual hardware: > DELUA at non standard addr, RA81, RL02 > > Moved boot RL02 to 11/70 with RSTS/E > > Made bootable RA81 on 11/70 > > Untar:ed usr from > > ftp://haba at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD/file6.tar.gz > > ....And now the binaries from that tar file crash with "unknown system > call" However, the binaries distributed in the disk images work. Any > clues? > > Harald. > > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA11410 for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:54:56 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 23 07:55:25 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:55:25 +1100 (EST) Subject: SCO processing the new licenses Message-ID: <199803222155.IAA08277@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Hi all, Dion at SCO writes today: We have about a dozen licenses here, all paid up and signed off. So you should start receiving your PDP Unix licenses soon. He didn't say who the first dozen were. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12569 for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:02:33 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From edgee at cyberpass.net Mon Mar 23 12:02:10 1998 From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:02:10 -0400 Subject: Building sim tapes In-Reply-To: <199803220423.UAA08735@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <199803230302.WAA21783@renoir.op.net> > What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you > need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/ > 2.11BSD. I've looked everywhere I can think of on the PUPS site, but couldn't find 'makesimtape'. I couldn't find it among the source of Bob's emulator. Where can I get a copy of this program? Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA12805 for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:31:25 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 23 14:31:19 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:31:19 +1100 (EST) Subject: Building sim tapes In-Reply-To: <199803230302.WAA21783@renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Mar 22, 98 10:02:10 pm" Message-ID: <199803230431.PAA09463@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Ed G.: > > What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you > > need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/ > > 2.11BSD. > > I've looked everywhere I can think of on the PUPS site, but couldn't > find 'makesimtape'. I couldn't find it among the source of Bob's > emulator. Where can I get a copy of this program? I don't think Bob's latest emulator has got this. I've hacked at another program to do this, and I'll make it available tomorrow. Bob has asked me to submit this to him for inclusion in his simulator. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA12839 for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:39:21 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From sms at moe.2bsd.com Mon Mar 23 14:38:48 1998 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:38:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Building sim tapes Message-ID: <199803230438.UAA27736@moe.2bsd.com> > From: "Ed G." > > > What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you > > need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/ > > I've looked everywhere I can think of on the PUPS site, but couldn't > find 'makesimtape'. I couldn't find it among the source of Bob's > emulator. Where can I get a copy of this program? It's in /usr/src/sys/pdpstand. Look in file7.tar.gz from the 2.11 part of the Distributions and it should be somewhere in there. makesimtape is a hacked up version of 'maketape', the syntax and data file are the same so if you know how to use 'maketape' to create bootable tapes you're all set. The program is short enough I'll include it here. It should compile and run with minimal tweeking on any 'BSD'ish UNIX system. Steven ----------------------- /* * @(#)makesimtape.c 2.0 (2.11BSD) 1997/8/7 * Hacked 'maketape.c' to write a file in a format suitable for * use with Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator (V2.3) emulated tape * driver. * * NOTE: a PDP-11 has to flip the shorts within the long when writing out * the record size. Seems a PDP-11 is neither a little-endian * machine nor a big-endian one. */ #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #define MAXB 30 char buf[MAXB * 512]; char name[50]; long recsz, flipped, trl(); int blksz; int mt, fd, cnt; struct iovec iovec[3]; struct iovec tmark[2]; void usage(); main(argc, argv) int argc; char *argv[]; { int i, j = 0, k = 0, zero = 0; register char *outfile = NULL, *infile = NULL; FILE *mf; struct stat st; while ((i = getopt(argc, argv, "i:o:")) != EOF) { switch (i) { case 'o': outfile = optarg; break; case 'i': infile = optarg; break; default: usage(); /* NOTREACHED */ } } if (!outfile || !infile) usage(); /* NOTREACHED */ /* * Stat the outfile and make sure it either 1) Does not exist, or * 2) Exists but is a regular file. */ if (stat(outfile, &st) != -1 && !(S_ISREG(st.st_mode))) errx(1, "outfile must either not exist or be a regular file"); /* NOTREACHED */ mt = open(outfile, O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_TRUNC, 0600); if (mt < 0) err(1, "Can not create %s", outfile); /* NOTREACHED */ mf = fopen(infile, "r"); if (!mf) err(1, "Can not open %s", infile); /* NOTREACHED*/ tmark[0].iov_len = sizeof (long); tmark[0].iov_base = (char *)&zero; while (1) { if ((i = fscanf(mf, "%s %d", name, &blksz))== EOF) exit(0); if (i != 2) { fprintf(stderr,"Help! Scanf didn't read 2 things (%d)\n", i); exit(1); } if (blksz <= 0 || blksz > MAXB) { fprintf(stderr, "Block size %u is invalid\n", blksz); exit(1); } recsz = blksz * 512; /* convert to bytes */ iovec[0].iov_len = sizeof (recsz); #ifdef pdp11 iovec[0].iov_base = (char *)&flipped; #else iovec[0].iov_base = (char *)&recsz; #endif iovec[1].iov_len = (int)recsz; iovec[1].iov_base = buf; iovec[2].iov_len = iovec[0].iov_len; iovec[2].iov_base = iovec[0].iov_base; if (strcmp(name, "*") == 0) { if (writev(mt, tmark, 1) < 0) warn(1, "writev of pseudo tapemark failed"); k++; continue; } fd = open(name, 0); if (fd < 0) err(1, "Can't open %s for reading", name); /* NOTREACHED */ printf("%s: block %d, file %d\n", name, j, k); /* * we pad the last record with nulls * (instead of the bell std. of padding with trash). * this allows you to access text files on the * tape without garbage at the end of the file. * (note that there is no record length associated * with tape files) */ while ((cnt=read(fd, buf, (int)recsz)) == (int)recsz) { j++; #ifdef pdp11 flipped = trl(recsz); #endif if (writev(mt, iovec, 3) < 0) err(1, "writev #1"); /* NOTREACHED */ } if (cnt > 0) { j++; bzero(buf + cnt, (int)recsz - cnt); #ifdef pdp11 flipped = trl(recsz); #endif if (writev(mt, iovec, 3) < 0) err(1, "writev #2"); /* NOTREACHED */ } close(fd); } /* * Write two tape marks to simulate EOT */ writev(mt, tmark, 1); writev(mt, tmark, 1); } long trl(l) long l; { union { long l; short s[2]; } foo; register short x; foo.l = l; x = foo.s[0]; foo.s[0] = foo.s[1]; foo.s[1] = x; return(foo.l); } void usage() { fprintf(stderr, "usage: makesimtape -o outfilefile -i inputfile\n"); exit(1); } Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12877 for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:00:16 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Mon Mar 23 15:00:45 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:00:45 +1100 (EST) Subject: Where ISN'T the PUPS Archive (was building sim tapes) In-Reply-To: <199803230438.UAA27736@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Mar 22, 98 08:38:48 pm" Message-ID: <199803230500.QAA09569@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Steven M. Schultz: > > From: "Ed G." > > > > > What you need to do is build a 'tape' (using 'makesimtape' if you > > > need to use Bob's emulator) from ALL of the files in Distributions/ucb/ > > > > I've looked everywhere I can think of on the PUPS site, but couldn't > > find 'makesimtape'. I couldn't find it among the source of Bob's > > emulator. Where can I get a copy of this program? > It's in /usr/src/sys/pdpstand. Look in file7.tar.gz from the 2.11 part > of the Distributions and it should be somewhere in there. Ah, I should point out to the readers of the mailing list: The PUPS Archive is NOT what you get by going to ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au as anonymous. Obviously, the archive has to be password protected, and so the anonymous ftp on Minnie isn't the Archive. I suspect Ed has been walking thru the anonymous area, which is why he could only find Bob Supnik's emulator. Anyway, Steven has provided a solution. Steven, could you put in #ifdefs for particular endian architectures??? Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA16339 for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:49:18 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From edgee at cyberpass.net Tue Mar 24 11:49:02 1998 From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:49:02 -0400 Subject: What's magtape good for anyway? Message-ID: <199803240249.VAA27961@renoir.op.net> > The program is short enough I'll include it here. It should compile > and run with minimal tweeking on any 'BSD'ish UNIX system. Thanks! I was just a plain old user during my college days, so I've never had much contact with magtape. But since magtape seems the easiest way to get data into and out of Bob Supnik's emulator, I've been fooling around with (simulated) tape a lot lately. To me (or maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about) it seems like magtape has a number of deficiencies: No filenames or directory structure: just an ordered series of bytes. Which would seem to imply that people must've used tar *a lot* to get these services. True? Padding of files to a multiple of the block size. Yuck! If I have a 312 byte file, I do not want to save it and then retrieve a (to my eyes anyway) different 512 byte file which has been padded with 200 bytes I didn't put there. Did this padding of files ever have any bad effects? So I was wondering, what *did* people use magtape for on these old Unix systems? Here are my guesses: Bad Old Days What we use now ================================ Archival storage (tape, CD-Roms, Zip drives, floppies) Application Software distribution (WWW, CD-Roms, ftp, email, floppies) System software distribution (CD-Roms, ftp) Backups (tape) Transfering a little data (Floppies, email). Transfering a lot of data (CD-Roms, Zip drives, ftp, tape) Have I left any significant use for tape out? Ed G. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA16572 for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:34:14 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Mar 24 14:34:54 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:34:54 +1100 (EST) Subject: What's magtape good for anyway? In-Reply-To: <199803240249.VAA27961@renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Mar 23, 98 09:49:02 pm" Message-ID: <199803240434.PAA11927@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Ed G.: > So I was wondering, what *did* people use magtape for on these old > Unix systems? Add another one: Xmas decorations. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA16598 for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:44:36 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Mar 24 14:45:16 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:45:16 +1100 (EST) Subject: Moving PDP-11 disk images to disk Message-ID: <199803240445.PAA11961@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, I've had a few people ask the question: I have a PDP-11, you have disk and tape images for old Unixes. How do get the images onto my actual disk/tape so I can install Unix? If anybody has sucessfully done: image -> tape -> install to disk -> working PDP-11 UNIX image -> install to disk -> working PDP-11 UNIX or any other variant, using any intermediate system (e.g KSERVE & RT-11), could they please drop me a note with some _details_ of what they did. I'd like to add this to the FAQ, as I suspect this is going to be a popular question as people receive their SCO UNIX licenses. Thanks in advance! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA16670 for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:59:01 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Mar 24 14:58:44 1998 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:58:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: What's magtape good for anyway? In-Reply-To: <199803240249.VAA27961@renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at Mar 23, 98 09:49:02 pm Message-ID: <9803240458.AA14216@alph02.triumf.ca> > To me (or maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about) it seems > like magtape has a number of deficiencies: > > No filenames or directory structure: just an ordered series of > bytes. Which would seem to imply that people must've used tar *a lot* > to get these services. True? Most (non-Unix) minicomputer OS's had built-in support for ANSI labeled files, which do have filenames (and header bytes to specify record sizes and number of records). Folks who used Unix either made their own labeled tape facility (e.g. Ultrix and OSF/1 "ltf") or just used "dd" and a lot of hard work. The lack of a record structure that is built-in to the Unix filesystem really makes things like tape transfers quite irritating. The rest of the world isn't always just a stream of bytes! Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA17996 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 01:32:09 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca Wed Mar 25 00:31:48 1998 From: kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca (Ken Wellsch) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:31:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: What's magtape good for anyway? In-Reply-To: <9803240458.AA14216@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 23, 98 08:58:44 pm Message-ID: <199803241431.JAA09618@math.uwaterloo.ca> Now far for me to be defending 9-track tapes on UNIX systems, and I'm the first to admit I've not encountered *all* the various methods used everywhere to write tapes, but it took no time for me years ago to write a program that would pull blocks off a tape (by trying to read the max limit block size) and recording the actual block size read. Oddly enough when matched with a program that read this "raw format" info, it was sure trivial to reproduce the tape... but I'm sure I'm missing something. Luckily on my UNIX systems I am unencumbered by someone else's potentially proprietary or undocumented "file structure" - both by the system and by the media. -- Ken | From owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Tue Mar 24 00:09:12 1998 | | Most (non-Unix) minicomputer OS's had built-in support for | ANSI labeled files, which do have filenames (and header bytes to | specify record sizes and number of records). Folks who used Unix | either made their own labeled tape facility (e.g. Ultrix and | OSF/1 "ltf") or just used "dd" and a lot of hard work. | | The lack of a record structure that is built-in to the Unix filesystem | really makes things like tape transfers quite irritating. The rest of | the world isn't always just a stream of bytes! | | Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA19183 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:18:41 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 25 07:18:39 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:18:39 +1100 (EST) Subject: More on Disk Images -> Disk Message-ID: <199803242118.IAA00742@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> All, I spent some time last night adding stuff to my virtual tape server. I have to test it today, but essentially: Box with serial line PDP-11 with tape server -----------> uncompress & dd + disk_image.Z (bootable) In other words, you can boot to an uncompressing dd, and suck over any disk image, without actually requiring an operating system. With this approach, you obtain an existing disk image that will work, or you use one of the PDP-11 emulators to create a disk image with a Unix kernel configured for your system. You then compress it, and suck/splat it to your real PDP-11 via the serial line. Now, what I've currently got will cope with -b12 compressed files. Can someone tell me if it would be feasible to fit a gunzip into 64K?? Even if it could only cope with gzip -1 files. Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA19562 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:23:05 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 25 10:23:05 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:23:05 +1100 (EST) Subject: Compress Disk Image Install works Message-ID: <199803250023.LAA01449@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Well, I'm currently sucking a .Z compress RK05 disk image over a 9600 baud DL11 port; it seems to be working. Pity -b12 gives such low compression, but I guess any saving at 9600 baud is worth it. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA19586 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:30:26 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From sms at moe.2bsd.com Wed Mar 25 10:24:33 1998 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:24:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: More on Disk Images -> Disk Message-ID: <199803250024.QAA14701@moe.2bsd.com> Warren - >From: Warren Toomey > Now, what I've currently got will cope with -b12 compressed files. Can > someone tell me if it would be feasible to fit a gunzip into 64K?? Even > if it could only cope with gzip -1 files. If my understanding of 'gzip' is right then the alogrithm works on 32kb blocks of data and the '-N' level has little to do with the memory consumption. Rather, as the -1, ... -9 level increases the amount of work that gzip puts into the compression increases (the difference between -6 and -9 is only a few percent in final output size but the length of time taken is quite a bit higher). Of concern would be getting the gzip sources to compile with a non-ANSI compiler on a non-32bit machine (sizeof (long) == sizeof(int) is an endemic assumption I wager). Well, ok - there is the worry that you will grow old waiting for it to compress something ;-) Gzip is a lot more cpu intensive than compress. Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA19600 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:32:56 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 25 10:32:56 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:32:56 +1100 (EST) Subject: More on Disk Images -> Disk In-Reply-To: <199803250024.QAA14701@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Mar 24, 98 04:24:33 pm" Message-ID: <199803250032.LAA01502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Steven M. Schultz: > Warren - > > >From: Warren Toomey > > > Now, what I've currently got will cope with -b12 compressed files. Can > > someone tell me if it would be feasible to fit a gunzip into 64K?? Even > > if it could only cope with gzip -1 files. > > If my understanding of 'gzip' is right then the alogrithm works on > 32kb blocks of data and the '-N' level has little to do with the > memory consumption. Rather, as the -1, ... -9 level increases the > amount of work that gzip puts into the compression increases (the > difference between -6 and -9 is only a few percent in final output > size but the length of time taken is quite a bit higher). > > Of concern would be getting the gzip sources to compile with a non-ANSI > compiler on a non-32bit machine (sizeof (long) == sizeof(int) is an > endemic assumption I wager). Well, ok - there is the worry that > you will grow old waiting for it to compress something ;-) Gzip is a > lot more cpu intensive than compress. I'm only thinking of implementing gunzip on the PDP-11. I've got uncompress -b12 running standalone right now, but gunzip would be a big win: you gzip -9 on a 32-bit system (higher compression) and gunzip on the PDP-11. I just don't know if the gunzip would fit. Isn't there a gunzip for MS-DOS? Surely we could leverage something from it? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA20196 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:36:27 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 25 13:36:28 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:36:28 +1100 (EST) Subject: More on Disk Images -> Disk In-Reply-To: from Peter Chubb at "Mar 25, 98 02:32:00 pm" Message-ID: <199803250336.OAA02126@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Peter Chubb: > > In the Linux kernel, linux/lib/inflate.c and > arch/i386/boot/compressed/misc.c there's a set of gunzip routines that > could probably be adapted -- it runs in 16 bit mode (or ought > to). inflate.c is K&R C, so it should compile under V7; misc.c is > ANSI, but is small (just wrappers around gunzip) and in any case would > bneed changing to make a proper gunzip. > > I'll see what I can do. > Peter C. I think Steven described the main thing: will it run in 64K? I've popped some mail off to Jean-loup, who was involved with writing gzip. If we can get gunzip running in 64K on V7, I can then move it to a standalone program with minimal effort: the V7 standalone library provides open, close, read, write, printf, exit. Cheers! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20401 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:31:45 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Wed Mar 25 14:31:34 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:01:34 +1030 Subject: More on Disk Images -> Disk In-Reply-To: <199803250336.OAA02126@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 02:36:28PM +1100 References: <199803250336.OAA02126@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <19980325150133.00427@freebie.lemis.com> On Wed, 25 March 1998 at 14:36:28 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Peter Chubb: >> >> In the Linux kernel, linux/lib/inflate.c and >> arch/i386/boot/compressed/misc.c there's a set of gunzip routines that >> could probably be adapted -- it runs in 16 bit mode (or ought >> to). inflate.c is K&R C, so it should compile under V7; misc.c is >> ANSI, but is small (just wrappers around gunzip) and in any case would >> bneed changing to make a proper gunzip. >> >> I'll see what I can do. >> Peter C. > > I think Steven described the main thing: will it run in 64K? I've popped > some mail off to Jean-loup, who was involved with writing gzip. I've done a little bit of playing around with gzip 1.2.4. It works on 16 bit MS-DOS platforms with a bit of tweaking, and I got all modules to compile under 2.11BSD. Unfortunately, I ended up with a couple of undefined references on linking, and I haven't had time to look at it in more detail. On the whole, though, it looks as if it could be made to work, maybe with a little tweaking. > If we can get gunzip running in 64K on V7, I can then move it to a > standalone program with minimal effort: the V7 standalone library > provides open, close, read, write, printf, exit. Should be doable. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20463 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:49:13 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From edgee at cyberpass.net Wed Mar 25 13:48:33 1998 From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:48:33 -0400 Subject: What's magtape good for anyway? In-Reply-To: <9803240458.AA14216@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <199803240249.VAA27961@renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at Mar 23, 98 09:49:02 pm Message-ID: <199803250448.XAA23265@renoir.op.net> > OSF/1 "ltf") or just used "dd" and a lot of hard work. Is 'dd' Unix's primary tool for dealing with tape drives? > The lack of a record structure that is built-in to the Unix filesystem > really makes things like tape transfers quite irritating. The rest of > the world isn't always just a stream of bytes! There are certain areas of Unix that don't seem quite "done" to me. Printing comes to mind (compare Unix benign neglect with Windows' universal printer driver). My understanding is that the Unix philosophy was to provide raw and cooked drivers for all the devices. That way you could have access to the hardware if you needed it, or cushy operating system services if you didn't. Only the cooked mode for the tape devices doesn't seem to do much more than the raw mode. Seems to me that they could have easily added file system services for tape drives to the kernel, just like they did for hard disks. Was support for tape another area that the Wizzards at Bell Labs neglected in favor of other more urgent needs? Ed Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20456 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:49:02 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From edgee at cyberpass.net Wed Mar 25 13:48:33 1998 From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:48:33 -0400 Subject: Bug in Supnik's emulator? Message-ID: <199803250448.XAA23272@renoir.op.net> I don't know whether this is a bug in the factor (1) program (which seems unlikely) or the emulator. Can someone try factoring numbers on a real pdp-11 and tell me what happens? On the emulator when I type in a number, factor prints out the prime factors, followed by an infinite series of 17s. So, for example factor 6 2 3 17 17 .... I might add that I had bc running on the emulator calculate pi to 30 places and the results were identical with gnu bc on my linux box, right down to the last digit. Very impressive. Ed Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20530 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:10:24 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From sms at moe.2bsd.com Wed Mar 25 15:06:26 1998 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:06:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: More on Disk Images -> Disk Message-ID: <199803250506.VAA16340@moe.2bsd.com> Greg - > I've done a little bit of playing around with gzip 1.2.4. It works on Are gzip and gunzip comparable in size? I'm curious if the decompression is more 'address space' hungry than the act of compression (or vice-versa). > 16 bit MS-DOS platforms with a bit of tweaking, and I got all modules > to compile under 2.11BSD. Unfortunately, I ended up with a couple of > undefined references on linking, and I haven't had time to look at it Which symbols came up missing/undefined? > > If we can get gunzip running in 64K on V7, I can then move it to a > > Should be doable. It's actually 56kb or less - have to leave room for the stack and other data (strings, etc) Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20562 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:24:15 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Wed Mar 25 15:24:01 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:54:01 +1030 Subject: Bug in Supnik's emulator? In-Reply-To: <199803250448.XAA23272@renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Tue, Mar 24, 1998 at 11:48:33PM -0400 References: <199803250448.XAA23272@renoir.op.net> Message-ID: <19980325155401.32216@freebie.lemis.com> On Tue, 24 March 1998 at 23:48:33 -0400, Ed G. wrote: > I don't know whether this is a bug in the factor (1) program (which > seems unlikely) or the emulator. Can someone try factoring numbers on > a real pdp-11 and tell me what happens? > > On the emulator when I type in a number, factor prints out the > prime factors, followed by an infinite series of 17s. So, for > example > > factor 6 > 2 > 3 > 17 > 17 > .... I would be very surprised if this was a bug in the emulator. In any case, I tried it on the begemot emulator, running 2.11BSD: [55] root--> /usr/games/factor 6 2 3 [56] root--> Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20581 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:29:08 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Wed Mar 25 15:28:46 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:58:46 +1030 Subject: More on Disk Images -> Disk In-Reply-To: <199803250506.VAA16340@moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Tue, Mar 24, 1998 at 09:06:26PM -0800 References: <199803250506.VAA16340@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <19980325155846.17376@freebie.lemis.com> On Tue, 24 March 1998 at 21:06:26 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Greg - > >> I've done a little bit of playing around with gzip 1.2.4. It works on > > Are gzip and gunzip comparable in size? They're links to the same executable. > I'm curious if the > decompression is more 'address space' hungry than the act of > compression (or vice-versa). I haven't looked at the process images on systems on which they run. I suspect it wouldn't relate directly to 16 bit platforms anyway, since they have a slightly modified algorithm. >> 16 bit MS-DOS platforms with a bit of tweaking, and I got all modules >> to compile under 2.11BSD. Unfortunately, I ended up with a couple of >> undefined references on linking, and I haven't had time to look at it > > Which symbols came up missing/undefined? Various things defined in the program. They relate to the area in which I was tweaking. >>> If we can get gunzip running in 64K on V7, I can then move it to a >> >> Should be doable. > > It's actually 56kb or less - have to leave room for the stack and > other data (strings, etc) Yes, I understand. It may of course be that we need separate I and D. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20659 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:48:07 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Wed Mar 25 15:47:54 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:17:54 +1030 Subject: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple Message-ID: <19980325161754.63486@freebie.lemis.com> OK, I've found the problems with gzip, and they're not encouraging. It would appear that the undefined references are undefined because they refer to data which is too large. Here's the preprocessor output: uch inbuf[ 0x8000 + 64 ]; uch outbuf[ 16384 +2048 ]; ush d_buf[ 0x8000 ]; uch window[ 2*0x8000 ]; # 194 "gzip.c" ush prev[ 1<<(16-1)]; ush tab_prefix1[ 1<<(16-1)]; uch and ush are uchar and ushort respectively. Obviously there's no way of fitting this into a 64 kB address space. Possibly there's a way of shortening the buffers, but it would take more time than I have right now. Sorry for raising your hopes. There are other zip-compatible programs out there, such as unzip. Maybe somebody should look into them. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA20686 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:00:29 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From johnh at psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au Wed Mar 25 16:00:21 1998 From: johnh at psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:00:21 +1100 Subject: What's magtape good for anyway? Message-ID: <199803250600.RAA02807@psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> There were several tape handling programs that were standand from edition 5 onwards, including tap, tp, dtp, itp, tar and cpio. The only major tape standard around at the time (other than IBM) was ANSI, and several programs (not from Bell) were available to handle these. The ANSI tape structure was very inefficient with tape usage, since it used small record sizes and lots of tape marks. TAR did a better job (for Unix) and only lacked labels to name the tape. Putting tape filesystem handling into the kernel was definately against the original 'small is beautiful' philosophy. In any case, tape handling was very easy via the raw interface. As a side issue, Plan 9 has the ability to mount a tape as part of the namespace and only reads the file contents if the file is opened. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA20787 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:44:22 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From peterc at softway.com.au Wed Mar 25 17:43:00 1998 From: peterc at softway.com.au (Peter Chubb) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 17:43 +1000 Subject: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple In-Reply-To: <19980325161754.63486@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19980325161754.63486@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: >>>>> "Greg" == Greg Lehey writes: Greg> OK, I've found the problems with gzip, and they're not Greg> encouraging. It would appear that the undefined references are Greg> undefined because they refer to data which is too large. Here's Greg> the preprocessor output: Greg> uch inbuf[ 0x8000 + 64 ]; uch outbuf[ 16384 +2048 ]; ush Greg> d_buf[ 0x8000 ]; uch window[ 2*0x8000 ]; # 194 "gzip.c" You need to decrease the window size -- try setting it to 8k (instead of 32k) There should be a #define WSIZE 0x8000 somewhere. It may be worth playing with a decompress only version -- compression will take more space than decompression (you need two windows rather than one, for a start). inbuf can be smaller, too. Try 512 bytes to match the disc record size. Peter C Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA20848 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:11:48 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From grog at lemis.com Wed Mar 25 17:11:36 1998 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:41:36 +1030 Subject: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple In-Reply-To: ; from Peter Chubb on Wed, Mar 25, 1998 at 05:43:00PM +1000 References: <19980325161754.63486@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <19980325174136.47943@freebie.lemis.com> On Wed, 25 March 1998 at 17:43:00 +1000, Peter Chubb wrote: >>>>>> "Greg" == Greg Lehey writes: > > Greg> OK, I've found the problems with gzip, and they're not > Greg> encouraging. It would appear that the undefined references are > Greg> undefined because they refer to data which is too large. Here's > Greg> the preprocessor output: > > Greg> uch inbuf[ 0x8000 + 64 ]; uch outbuf[ 16384 +2048 ]; ush > Greg> d_buf[ 0x8000 ]; uch window[ 2*0x8000 ]; # 194 "gzip.c" > > You need to decrease the window size -- try setting it to 8k (instead > of 32k) > > There should be a > #define WSIZE 0x8000 > somewhere. Correct. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that. Here's the definition: #ifndef WSIZE # define WSIZE 0x8000 /* window size--must be a power of two, and */ #endif /* at least 32K for zip's deflate method */ > It may be worth playing with a decompress only version -- compression > will take more space than decompression (you need two windows rather > than one, for a start). Yes, that was really what I was thinking of doing with unzip, rather than excising the unzip part from gunzip. > inbuf can be smaller, too. Try 512 bytes to match the disc record > size. Sure, once I get into serious modifications I can try a number of things. The trouble is, I just don't have the time. I thought it was worth 15 minutes to see what it would do, and the first attempts looked encouraging. Unfortunately, the second attempts didn't :-( Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA21748 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:20:28 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 25 23:12:01 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:12:01 GMT Subject: Bug in Supnik's emulator? In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey "Re: Bug in Supnik's emulator?" (Mar 25, 15:54) References: <199803250448.XAA23272@renoir.op.net> <19980325155401.32216@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <9803251312.ZM14182@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> On Mar 25, 15:54, Greg Lehey wrote: > Subject: Re: Bug in Supnik's emulator? > On Tue, 24 March 1998 at 23:48:33 -0400, Ed G. wrote: > > I don't know whether this is a bug in the factor (1) program (which > > seems unlikely) or the emulator. Can someone try factoring numbers on > > a real pdp-11 and tell me what happens? > > > > On the emulator when I type in a number, factor prints out the > > prime factors, followed by an infinite series of 17s. > I would be very surprised if this was a bug in the emulator. > In any case, I tried it on the begemot emulator, running 2.11BSD: > > [55] root--> /usr/games/factor 6 > 2 > 3 > [56] root--> On my PDP-11/23 running 7th Edition, factor works fine: $ factor 6 2 3 $ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA21903 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 01:33:32 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 26 00:33:18 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:33:18 -0500 Subject: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple Message-ID: <199803251433.AA22453@world.std.com> I find this situation funny as in the 8080/z80 (8 bit data 64kbyte address space) world there is LZH, Crunch, ARK, ARC, LBR... compressors and decompressors. Atleast a handful are written in C. Also PDP11 address space (no I&D) is 32kW... Instructions are always words so code can eat up a fair portion of the 64k bytes. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA21915 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 01:33:52 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 26 00:33:41 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:33:41 -0500 Subject: What's magtape good for anyway? Message-ID: <199803251433.AA22737@world.std.com> References: <199803190143.CAA28649@pancake.pdc.kth.se> <199803190227.NAA04067@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <199803251603.QAA13855@cara.aiai.ed.ac.uk> * Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Harald Barth: >> One PDP-11 I have (and don't quite understand the hardware of) calls itself >> Tektronix 8562. In that box (43x60x30cm) you find >> LSI-11/73 (only part made by DIGITAL) >> Controller with >> 8'' floppy >> 40Mb MFM disk with TENIX (binary of some kind of V7 Unix) >> Controller with >> 10 ttys > Hmm, I haven't heard of Tenix before. I might punt this onto the > mailing list to see if anybody can identify it. > Any ideas, people?? I remember this. Somewhere I worked as a student there was a tektronix box which supported some kind of microcontroller development system and/or and in-circuit emulator (for things like 8048 / 8051, though I think it had personality modules). It was a box which was known to be a PDP11, and had a couple of tek terminals on it, probably another box with stuff to support the emulators/PROM blowers & stuff, and it ran Tenix. I had an account on it, but all I knew then was that it was some kind of Unix. V7 sounds right -- perhaps it was Tek's OEMd version of this, with (I guess) support for whatever HW they had + some kind of development environment / x-assemblers & so on. The box just might still exist somewhere -- I made an attempt to get hold of it after I realised that PDP11s were cool, but it was hard because it had been worth a lot of money once and the accountants went all funny about it. --tim Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA22240 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 03:30:47 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From milov at toes.its.uwlax.edu Thu Mar 26 02:32:14 1998 From: milov at toes.its.uwlax.edu (Milo Velimirovic) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 10:32:14 -0600 Subject: oddball versions of Unix Message-ID: <9803251632.AA01056@toes.its.uwlax.edu> Hey, does anyone know if LSX is coverd by the SCO source license? And where to get sources for it? It was a version of Unix that I played with 15 years ago on an LSI-11 system with dual AED floppy drives... it was nice in that it woudl run on a pdp11 that was lacking memory mangaement i.e. a 28kWord machine.... Shake those gray cells friends and let's see if we can scare this one out of the woodwork... it would make a lot of ancient pdp11's much more useful. Regards, Milo --- Milo Velimirovic Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030 Information Technology Services -- Network Services University of Wisconsin - La Crosse La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA22307 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 03:52:27 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From haba at pdc.kth.se Thu Mar 26 02:51:55 1998 From: haba at pdc.kth.se (Harald Barth) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:51:55 +0100 Subject: What's TENIX?? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:03:59 GMT" References: <199803251603.QAA13855@cara.aiai.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199803251652.RAA23470@pancake.pdc.kth.se> > The box just might still exist somewhere -- I made an attempt to > get hold of it after I realised that PDP11s were cool, but it was hard > because it had been worth a lot of money once and the accountants went > all funny about it. Oh yes, very common scenario. Booted just for fun, see below. Harald. Welcome to Tnix Version 2.1 (rev b) on an 11/73 We recommend that you check the file system after TNIX has been restarted. ( Checking the file system takes about 5 minutes for a minimum system of files, longer for more files. ) Do you want to check the file system at this time? Enter y for yes, n for no, or question mark for more information : y The standard TNIX syschk command reports any problems with the file system, but does not fix them. The Standalone Utilities syschk command reports any problems with the file system, and queries you on how to fix the problems. Which file system checker? 1) standard TNIX syschk (reports problems) 2) Standalone Utilities syschk (fixes problems) Please enter a number: 1 checking /dev/rhd0: ...checking i-nodes and directory entries... ...checking tree structure... ...checking free list... free list is ok. rebuild free list? (y or n): n 75349 total blocks in filesystem 0 bad blocks (0 percent) 44112 free blocks (58 percent) 22491 free i-nodes (89 percent) TNIX shows the current date and time as Sat Mar 22 23:31:31 MET 1997 If date and time is already correct, press RETURN. Otherwise, you need to reenter the date. The format for a date entry is [dd-mmm-yy] hh:mm[:ss] Example: 22-jun-83 14:20 Please enter correct date: 25-mar-98 02:34 Wed Mar 25 02:34:51 MET 1998 Do you want to remain single user? (Enter y for yes, n for no, or question mark for more information) : y Now entering single-user mode. To exit from single-user mode, enter CTRL-D. # Do you want to remain single user? (Enter y for yes, n for no, or question mark for more information) : n When you see the login prompt, you can enter your login name, "manager", or "root". login: your login name Logs you into your personal account. The account must already have been created by the system manager. login: manager Displays information about common system manager tasks, and information about the "root" account. login: root Logs you in to the "root" account -- the account used to maintain system files. As root, you have full access to all files on the system, and no restrictions as to what you can do with the files. We recommend that you limit access to the root account, and that you assign a password to the root account. login: root Password: ******************************************************************************** * * * WELCOME TO TEKTRONIX * * * ******************************************************************************** USERS ON THE SYSTEM: ASSAR HABA MHO IF YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEMS, DO NOT ASK HABA IF HE CAN HELP YOU # ls -ltr total 499 -rw------- 1 root 58740 Apr 10 1984 tnix.old -rw------- 1 root 9852 Apr 10 1984 boot drwxr-xr-x11 bin 176 Apr 10 1984 tek -rw------- 1 root 57584 Apr 10 1984 TNIX.old -rw------- 1 root 58740 Jun 20 1985 tnix -rwx--x--x 1 root 57584 Nov 9 1985 TNIX drwxr-xr-x 2 bin 736 Sep 23 1986 lib -rw-r--r-- 1 root 1024 Oct 1 1986 .hp_memory drwxrwxrwx 2 root 176 Jan 30 1987 lost+found drwxr-xr-x 5 root 80 Sep 1 1992 home drwxr-xr-x 7 bin 4336 Sep 1 1992 bin drwxr-xr-x 2 root 928 Nov 5 1992 dev drwxr-xr-x 2 root 80 Nov 5 1992 mnt drwxrwxr-x 4 root 128 Apr 19 1993 vaxboot drwxr-xr-x 4 bin 480 Mar 25 02:36 etc drwxr-xr-x25 bin 416 Mar 25 02:36 usr drwxrwxrwx 2 root 64 Mar 25 02:36 tmp # shutdown Wait for the message on the system console saying it is all right to halt the system. System may now be safely powered down or rebooted Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA22899 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 06:45:51 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From milov at toes.its.uwlax.edu Thu Mar 26 05:47:24 1998 From: milov at toes.its.uwlax.edu (Milo Velimirovic) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 13:47:24 -0600 Subject: Follow-up: oddball versions of Unix References: <9803251632.AA01056@toes.its.uwlax.edu> Message-ID: <9803251947.AA01217@toes.its.uwlax.edu> Hi, The system I referred to below was described in: Lycklama, H. UNIX on a Microprocessor, Bell System Technical Journal, Vol. 57, No. 6, July-August 1978, pp. 2087-2101 --Milo Begin forwarded message: > >X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From: Milo Velimirovic >Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 10:32:14 -0600 >To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au >Subject: oddball versions of Unix >Reply-To: Milo_Velimirovic at uwlax.edu >Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au > >Hey, > >does anyone know if LSX is coverd by the SCO source license? And where to >get sources for it? It was a version of Unix that I played with 15 years ago >on an LSI-11 system with dual AED floppy drives... it was nice in that it >woudl run on a pdp11 that was lacking memory mangaement i.e. a 28kWord >machine.... > >Shake those gray cells friends and let's see if we can scare this one out of >the woodwork... it would make a lot of ancient pdp11's much more useful. > > >Regards, >Milo >--- >Milo Velimirovic >Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030 >Information Technology Services -- Network Services >University of Wisconsin - La Crosse >La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA23043 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:33:40 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Mar 26 06:33:46 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:33:46 +1100 (EST) Subject: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple In-Reply-To: <199803251433.AA22453@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Mar 25, 98 09:33:18 am" Message-ID: <199803252033.HAA03043@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Allison J Parent: > I find this situation funny as in the 8080/z80 (8 bit data 64kbyte address > space) world there is LZH, Crunch, ARK, ARC, LBR... compressors and > decompressors. Atleast a handful are written in C. > > Also PDP11 address space (no I&D) is 32kW... Instructions are always > words so code can eat up a fair portion of the 64k bytes. Well, I've got uncompress working, but I thought having gunzip would be good as it gives better compression results. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA23256 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:52:38 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From Chris.Drake at Corp.Sun.COM Thu Mar 26 07:50:07 1998 From: Chris.Drake at Corp.Sun.COM (Chris Drake) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:50:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Follow-up: oddball versions of Unix Message-ID: <199803252150.NAA10104@rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> >UNIX on a Microprocessor I did use something called "Mini-Unix" on a PDP-11/10, which was a single- address space machine. It worked, sort of, but had some problems - like, pipes were implemented as temporary files, so the shell broke things apart into individual sequential commands... and printing with lpr generally froze the machine up. There may have been later and better versions, though. (This was around 76/77, as I recall). - Chris Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA23267 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:54:39 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 26 07:54:11 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:54:11 -0500 Subject: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple Message-ID: <199803252154.AA26144@world.std.com> from Chris Drake at "Mar 25, 98 01:50:07 pm" Message-ID: <199803252155.IAA03217@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Chris Drake: > >UNIX on a Microprocessor > > I did use something called "Mini-Unix" on a PDP-11/10, which was a single- > address space machine. It worked, sort of, but had some problems - like, > pipes were implemented as temporary files, so the shell broke things apart > into individual sequential commands... and printing with lpr generally > froze the machine up. There may have been later and better versions, though. > (This was around 76/77, as I recall). Yep, it's in the archive! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23322 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:04:52 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 26 07:56:05 1998 From: robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:56:05 +0000 Subject: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple In-Reply-To: <199803252033.HAA03043@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-ID: <0S+aPCA11XG1EwK5@falstaf.demon.co.uk> In message <199803252033.HAA03043 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey writes >In article by Allison J Parent: >> I find this situation funny as in the 8080/z80 (8 bit data 64kbyte address >> space) world there is LZH, Crunch, ARK, ARC, LBR... compressors and >> decompressors. Atleast a handful are written in C. >> >> Also PDP11 address space (no I&D) is 32kW... Instructions are always >> words so code can eat up a fair portion of the 64k bytes. > >Well, I've got uncompress working, but I thought having gunzip would >be good as it gives better compression results. > > Warren I looked at this several years ago and gave up at the save point as Warren. I looked at compress using 16 bits and hit the same sort of constructs. After a bit of thinking I believe there may be a way round it but at the time I didn't know the algorithms used in compress or gzip so didn't try playing. The problem is that the compression algorithm needs a 64k space to do all of its sums in, don't ask me why, if someone could tell us the algorithm them I would understand a lot better. These are defined as 64k address spaces which the data page isn't holding cos they don't fit. If you write a virtual mem system then this will work. This causes problems in the standalone world obviously but steve wrote a vm lookalike for 2.11 that uses files, yes a lump of real mem aka the partition concept with movable windows in RSX would be nice but we can't have everything, but compress and maybe gip should be able to be cooked into using such a system for vm. This would be slow but what are we after?, an all singing all dancing system or something that would work in the background whilst we get a beer and wait for the system to install?. Cheers Robin Robin Birch robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23342 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:07:50 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Mar 26 08:07:35 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:07:35 +1100 (EST) Subject: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple In-Reply-To: <0S+aPCA11XG1EwK5@falstaf.demon.co.uk> from Robin Birch at "Mar 25, 98 09:56:05 pm" Message-ID: <199803252207.JAA03305@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Robin Birch: [ not being able to run gzip on a PDP-11 ] > This would be slow but > what are we after?, an all singing all dancing system or something that > would work in the background whilst we get a beer and wait for the > system to install?. You're right I think. At least compress -b12 works, and as you say, a bit of extra wait isn't going to hurt too much. Peter Chubb seems interested in fitting gunzip into 64K. I'll see how he goes with it. Thanks all for your comments, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23554 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:29:54 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Thu Mar 26 08:30:00 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:30:00 +1100 (EST) Subject: Available: tool to write disk images to PDP-11 Message-ID: <199803252230.JAA03395@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Ok, I debugged the thing yesterday, it works well. If you want to write a PDP-11 disk image to a real PDP-11, you might like to look in: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver and at the file zcat.README there. Current disk and tapes supported: hp: RP04, RP05 and RP06 disks. rp: RP03 disks. rk: RK05 disks. rl: RL01 and RL02 disks. ht: TU16 or TE16 tape drive. tm: TU10 tape drive. vt: The Virtual Tape drive. You can download from any tape to any disk. The Virtual Tape drive allows you to download the image over a KL11 at 9,600 baud. Any type of disk image can be downloaded, not just Unix ones. You will need compress(1). And a bit of patience. Let's hope someone tries this out! Ciao, Warren P.S I plan on migrating to the 2.11BSD standalone stuff, which supports more tape drives and disk drives. Sometime. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24607 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:21:30 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From peterc at softway.com.au Thu Mar 26 14:21:00 1998 From: peterc at softway.com.au (Peter Chubb) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 14:21 +1000 Subject: Progress on zcat Message-ID: Well... my cut-down zcat now works under Linux, and compiles and links cleanly under v7 on the simulator. But the semantics are wrong! Big problem is the lack of unsigned char and unsigned long types. I'm gradually going through and finding places where left shifts, or sign extensions are happening, and masking them explicitly. I'm almost sure that at UNSW we had a C compiler on Unix V7 that had an unsigned long data type... Anyway, there's progress. And if it all goes OK, then on machines that have separate I&D spaces, the resulting zcat will be compatible with gzip everywhere. Peter C Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA29445 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:51:52 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From edgee at cyberpass.net Fri Mar 27 12:51:31 1998 From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:51:31 -0400 Subject: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! Message-ID: <199803270351.WAA01451@renoir.op.net> As you know, I wrote this list recently about a bug in Bob Supnik's emulator which manifests when running factor (1). I've had a chance to do some further research on this, and it seems to me that the bug is definitely in Supnik's emulator. What do you all think? Am I onto something? If so, what part of Supnik's code is probably to blame? Here's what I've learned so far: 1. factor on Supnik's emulator fails most of the time (see below for examples). 2. factor works fine on Ersatz-11 2. On the off-chance that I munged the disk images and somehow corrupted factor, I reextracted virgin images from the tar ball. factor still fails while running on Supnik's emulator. 3. Peter Turnbull wrote me that factor running on under uv7 on his PDP-11/23 runs the test case 'factor 6' without error. Here's what factor does on Supnik's emulator for a variety of values: factor 6 2 3 17 17 etc. factor 257 263 263 etc. factor 263 269 269 etc. factor 1009 (works correctly) 1009 Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA29824 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:28:35 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Mar 27 16:28:52 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 06:28:52 GMT Subject: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! In-Reply-To: "Ed G." "Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!" (Mar 26, 22:51) References: <199803270351.WAA01451@renoir.op.net> Message-ID: <9803270628.ZM27283@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Hi, Ed. > I've had a chance to do some further research on this, and it seems > to me that the bug is definitely in Supnik's emulator. What do you > all think? Am I onto something? If so, what part of Supnik's code > is probably to blame? Interesting... did you use the same binary on both Bob's emulator and Ersatz? > 3. Peter Turnbull wrote me that factor running on under uv7 on his > PDP-11/23 runs the test case 'factor 6' without error. Ah, I meant to mail that to the list. No matter, it got to where it was most needed, obviously :-) I'd suggest you recompile factor if you have the source, but add some debugging. If you can't do that, you could try running it with adb (the debugger, man 1 adb for details). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA02487 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:50:54 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Sat Mar 28 10:50:54 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:50:54 +1100 (EST) Subject: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! In-Reply-To: <9803270628.ZM27283@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "Mar 27, 98 06:28:52 am" Message-ID: <199803280050.LAA05410@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In article by Pete Turnbull: > Hi, Ed. > > > I've had a chance to do some further research on this, and it seems > > to me that the bug is definitely in Supnik's emulator. What do you > > all think? Am I onto something? If so, what part of Supnik's code > > is probably to blame? > > Interesting... did you use the same binary on both Bob's emulator and Ersatz? > > > 3. Peter Turnbull wrote me that factor running on under uv7 on his > > PDP-11/23 runs the test case 'factor 6' without error. > I'd suggest you recompile factor if you have the source, but add some > debugging. If you can't do that, you could try running it with adb (the > debugger, man 1 adb for details). I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that there is a bug. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA05778 for pups-liszt; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:52:20 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Sun Mar 29 09:41:33 1998 From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:41:33 +1000 (EST) Subject: Digest of PUPS mail available Message-ID: <199803282341.JAA06110@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> The PUPS mailing list seems to be getting busier. For those `lurkers' who want to follow the list, but don't want to be pestered by incoming email every 10 minutes, I've set up a digest form of the list. The digest will be sent out every Monday and Thursday, or if the incoming e-mail exceeds 40K in total. To get the digest version, and to unsubscribe from the normal list, send e-mail to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au with the commands in the message body: subscribe pups-digest unsubscribe pups You still need to send mail to pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au for it to go to the PUPS list and to be included in the digest. Warren