From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Fri Oct 1 12:11:52 1999 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 12:11:52 +1000 (EST) Subject: Access to PUPS Archive In-Reply-To: from Lord Isildur at "Sep 30, 1999 9:58:17 am" Message-ID: <199910010211.MAA03219@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Lord Isildur: > hello, > > alas, i do not have an account on the PUPS Archive machine! could i have one? > i remember vaguely something about requiring pgp-signed stuff, and i dont > use pgp, and so dont have a public (or any other) key. > isildur Here's the policy for the machine holding the PUPS Archive: + People with UNIX source licenses can get at least guest FTP access to the archive, with S/Key as the authentication mechanism. + People with UNIX source licenses, and who either help to maintain the archive, or who have volunteered to distribute the archive, can get ssh access to the machine. + No telnet access, no e-mail. The box runs with `reserved tolerance' from the real system administrators :-) If you fall into either category, and can prove you have a UNIX source license, then I can either PGP e-mail you, or fax you, the access details. Apologies for the cross-post to the 3 old UNIX-related mailing lists! Cheers, Warren From grog at lemis.com Sat Oct 2 19:03:49 1999 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 18:33:49 +0930 Subject: UNIX Milestones (was: Unix Calendar in Germany (Request for some help)) Message-ID: <19991002183348.C40186@freebie.lemis.com> Anybody here interested in helping? Greg ----- Forwarded message from Christoph Kaeder ----- > Delivered-To: freebsd-questions at freebsd.org > Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:53:14 +0200 > Organization: Lehmanns Fachbuchhandlung > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [de] (Win95; I) > To: freebsd-questions at FreeBSD.ORG > X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Precedence: bulk > > Hello. > > Lehmanns bookshop in Germany will print a > Unix-Freeware-Calender in > postersize and give it away for FREE (300.000 copies / > 4-colour!). > > The calendar will include over 100 remarkable days from the > History of Unix, Linux, Freeware and Open Source. > > > Would you like to add some remarkable days from the > FreeBSD-History? > Release days or ... > > > - calendar-home : http://www.lob.de/cal0 > - first look (JPEG): http://www.lob.de/cal1 > - a detail: http://www.lob.de/cal2 > - form to add your remarkable days: http://www.lob.de/cal3 > > And if you agree we would like to add the FreeBSD Daemon on > this calender beside the Tux, TeX-Lion, Perl Camel ... > > Do you agree to this and can you send us a Tif or JPEG? > We need it with 300 dpi, 4-colour, about 1 inch high > > Thanks. > Christoph Kaeder > -- > > * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - > * -- * > Lehmanns Fachbuchhandlung fuer Informatik, Medizin und > Psychologie > Hermannstrasse 17 / 20095 Hamburg / GERMANY / > hh-city at lehmanns.de > Telefon 040 - 336384 / Fax 040-338955 / International: > 0049-40-... > http://www.lob.de / Mo - Fr von 10 bis 20 und Sa von 10 bis > 16 Uhr > * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - > * -- * > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo at FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message ----- End forwarded message ----- -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Thu Oct 14 16:34:43 1999 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:34:43 +1000 Subject: vtserver In-Reply-To: ; from Kirk Davis on Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:19:54PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <19991014163422.C41213@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:19:54PM -0700, Kirk Davis wrote: > Warren, > I've been checking out your vtserver program. It's a great idea > and it's been fun to play with. I'm bringing up a /34 and have been > collecting parts for it for a few months. I've got it set up with > a few RL02's on it. Few questions for you: > > Do you know of anyone that has used it on a /34? I've punched in the > bootstrap and ran it. It loads the boot file from my Linux system. > It appears to call it but it halts somewhere in the 70000-70040 region. > Nothing comes up on the console. Looks like the memory is over written > with the same values over and over again in this area. Any thoughts? > > I'm working on getting a source license from SCO. I'd love to hack on > this with you if you are interested in any help. Sorry for the delay Kirk. It could be that the V7 bootstrap expects split I/D, or a different I/O mapping then what's provided on the /34. I'll punt this to the PUPS mailing list. I have a suspicion that you won't be able to install V7, but you should be able to install V6 or 2.9BSD instead. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA02824 for pups-liszt; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 03:40:02 +1000 (EST) From wilko at yedi.iaf.nl Fri Oct 15 03:18:02 1999 From: wilko at yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 19:18:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: vtserver In-Reply-To: <19991014163422.C41213@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Warren Toomey at "Oct 14, 1999 4:34:43 pm" Message-ID: <199910141718.TAA01066@yedi.iaf.nl> As Warren Toomey wrote ... > On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:19:54PM -0700, Kirk Davis wrote: > > Warren, > > I've been checking out your vtserver program. It's a great idea > > and it's been fun to play with. I'm bringing up a /34 and have been > > collecting parts for it for a few months. I've got it set up with > > a few RL02's on it. Few questions for you: > > > > Do you know of anyone that has used it on a /34? I've punched in the > > bootstrap and ran it. It loads the boot file from my Linux system. > > It appears to call it but it halts somewhere in the 70000-70040 region. > > Nothing comes up on the console. Looks like the memory is over written > > with the same values over and over again in this area. Any thoughts? > > > > I'm working on getting a source license from SCO. I'd love to hack on > > this with you if you are interested in any help. > > Sorry for the delay Kirk. It could be that the V7 bootstrap expects > split I/D, or a different I/O mapping then what's provided on the /34. > > I'll punt this to the PUPS mailing list. I have a suspicion that > you won't be able to install V7, but you should be able to install V6 > or 2.9BSD instead. I once had Ultrix-11 3.1 running on a dual RK05 11/34. What I'd call a very minimal system ;-) But it ran -- | / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD - |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nl http://www.freebsd.org Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA03106 for pups-liszt; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 04:38:33 +1000 (EST) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Fri Oct 15 04:36:52 1999 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vtserver Message-ID: <199910141836.LAA21478@moe.2bsd.com> Hi - > From: Wilko Bulte I will be doing some more research on this when I get home from work tonight. > I once had Ultrix-11 3.1 running on a dual RK05 11/34. What I'd call a > very minimal system ;-) But it ran That is because DEC put the extra effort into supporting non-split I/D machines. The "stock" V7 really wanted a 11/70. In fact there was a chapter in the back of one of the manuals/books detailing what it took to get V7 running on an 11/40 (it was a non-trivial project). Several things conspire against V7 and later on 11/34 (or 35, 40, 60, etc). The two most notable ones are the limited address space, everything (drivers, data structures, general kernel code) must fit in 56kb instead of 120kb - (8kb reserved for the I/O page) and lack of instruction restart on MMU faults. I'll take a look at the V7 layout later but my memory is that it wanted an 11/70. Steven Schultz Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA03622 for pups-liszt; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 06:04:30 +1000 (EST) From m at mbsks.franken.de Fri Oct 15 05:59:50 1999 From: m at mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 21:59:50 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: vtserver In-Reply-To: <199910141718.TAA01066@yedi.iaf.nl> from Wilko Bulte at "Oct 14, 99 07:18:02 pm" Message-ID: Mahlzeit As Warren Toomey wrote ... > Sorry for the delay Kirk. It could be that the V7 bootstrap expects > split I/D, or a different I/O mapping then what's provided on the /34. I'm 99% sure, that it's V7 which I have running (for lower values of running, because one drive is dead and the power supply needs to be replaced) on my 11/34A with 128kB RAM and two RL01. I think I wanted to install V6, but installed V7 because of the RL01 drivers. I stripped V7 down, so I only needed one RL01 disk pack (I have only two.) and transfered the disk image via kermit. I want to install 2.11BSD on my M70 with 512kB RAM (No, more RAM is to expensive here. 1MB for over US$500.) and a 120MB ST506-type disk, but had not much time. I want to avoid the way of the disk image, because I have no BSD installed for the emulator and don't know, if the transfere of slices of the disk image would be successfull. (The RT-11 only handles 32MB "disks".) I think the best way would be to boot from a 2.11BSD floppy and install it via serial port. (TU-58 emu? Are there 1.2MB 2.11BSD floppies somewhere?) Mahlzeit endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside From RBROADWAY at tbs-ltd.co.uk Fri Oct 15 18:08:32 1999 From: RBROADWAY at tbs-ltd.co.uk (Broadway, Rusel) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:08:32 +0100 Subject: Help! Message-ID: <9114940C5E0FD31186950008C7B9A6021844C2@coexch.tbs-ltd.co.uk> Hi. I have been given a Bull DSP 2/300 system. The machine is running B.O.S. version 02.00.12. The machine boots and runs fine and I cal login as Root and look around the system. The problem I have is that the B.O.S. operating system is a Unix look-a-like and I can find no-one who actually knows anything about the box. Most Unix commands work but, being a VMS guy, I can't run the machine like my Digital MV 2's. Does anyone know anything about these machines? I particularly want to have a bash at programming the machine. It appears to have C (This should be fun. I've not touched C for 12 years!) Also. I have two Digital Micro Vax 2's. The both have hardware problems in that a) One machine has a system disk which will not come up to speed and b) The other has a corrupted system_primitives.exe on VMS 5.5-H and so I can't run either of them! Anyone know where I can get spares which are pre-loaded? I really would appreciate any help or advice/ pointers etc that anyone can give. Rusel Broadway Senior Systems Analyst DDI: 01206-25-5745 ********************** N O T I C E ********************************* This information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review , retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this error, please contact the sender and delete all copies of the message. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses, however we cannot guarantee that this message is free from such problems. ********************************************************************** Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA17930 for pups-liszt; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 05:02:44 +1000 (EST) From simul8 at simul8.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 17 05:11:03 1999 From: simul8 at simul8.demon.co.uk (James Lothian) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 20:11:03 +0100 Subject: vtserver References: <199910141836.LAA21478@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <3808CDC7.210BC969@simul8.demon.co.uk> Hmm.. I seem to remember, from when I was thinking about rolling my own 11 OS a few years ago, that the /34 differs from most of the other mid-range 11s in automatically restoring the CPU registers on a page fault. I think I picked this up from the differences table in the /04, /34 & /60 CPU handbook. (This was unfortunately no use at all to me, as I've got a /40 not a /34.) Of course, that was a while ago and I might be wrong. James "Steven M. Schultz" wrote: > > Hi - > > > From: Wilko Bulte > > I will be doing some more research on this when I get home from > work tonight. > > > I once had Ultrix-11 3.1 running on a dual RK05 11/34. What I'd call a > > very minimal system ;-) But it ran > > That is because DEC put the extra effort into supporting non-split I/D > machines. The "stock" V7 really wanted a 11/70. In fact there was a > chapter in the back of one of the manuals/books detailing what it took > to get V7 running on an 11/40 (it was a non-trivial project). > > Several things conspire against V7 and later on 11/34 (or 35, 40, 60, > etc). The two most notable ones are the limited address space, > everything (drivers, data structures, general kernel code) must fit > in 56kb instead of 120kb - (8kb reserved for the I/O page) and lack > of instruction restart on MMU faults. > > I'll take a look at the V7 layout later but my memory is that it > wanted an 11/70. > > Steven Schultz Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA18139 for pups-liszt; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 05:47:02 +1000 (EST) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Sun Oct 17 05:42:14 1999 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vtserver Message-ID: <199910161942.MAA18843@moe.2bsd.com> Hi - > From: James Lothian > > Hmm.. I seem to remember, from when I was thinking about rolling my own > 11 OS a few years ago, that the /34 differs from most of the other > mid-range 11s in automatically restoring the CPU registers on a page fault. I It's not the automatically restoring that is the problem - the /34, /40 (/60, etc) lack the MMU registers that record by how much the cpu registers have incremented/decremented at the time an instruction has faulted. SSR1 and SSR2 located at 0177574 and 0177576 respectively. From the module which handles the instruction restart (mch_backup.s): * 11/40 version of backup, for use with no SSR1 and SSR2. Actually SSR1 * usually exists for all processors except the '34 and '40 but always * reads as zero on those without separate I&D ... What is a dozen lines of code if those registers exist turns into over 300 lines and even then there is no guarantee (fortunately the C compiler does not generate the sequences that can not be handled) it will work. What's instruction restart used for? The most common case is growing the stack. The stack for a process starts out small and then kernel will automatically extend it downwards IF an instruction faults when accessing the stack area: sub $N,sp mov $xxx, XX(sp) mov -(r4), X(sp) for dealing with local variables in a function. The other case is when calling a function: mov (r0)+, -(sp) mov $xxx, -(sp) jsr pc, function If the reference to (sp) is made and the instruction faults the kernel will determine if the current stack needs to be extended. It will then restart the faulted instruction - but to do that it needs to know what other registers ('r0', 'r4', etc...) might have been already changed so that it can back out those changes before restarting the instruction. In the case of the 11/44, 70, 73, etc there are MMU registers that will record the fact that "R0" or "r4" or whatever was changed by 2 or not. On the /34 and /40 that capability does not exist and the kernel can not _always_ guarantee things will work. MOST of the time it will but... Interestingly enough there is a difference between the KDJ-11 (11/73) family and the other 11s which have the SSR1, and 2. From the bug report and fix for 2.11BSD (update #150): "The problem is that the KDJ-11 processes the double word store of the 'movfi' differently than the 11/44 or 11/70. On other systems (such as the 11/44) the first word is stored successfully at 0175000 then the program faults when trying to access 0174776 but SP is left at 0174776 with SSR1 (memory management status register 1) indicating that 'sp' was decremented by 4. The kernel adjusts 'sp', grows the stack and restarts the instruction. The 'movfi' then completes successfully. On a KDJ-11 cpu the story is different. The fault is generated as expected BUT 'SP' IS STILL 0175002! The kernel sees that 'sp' is still within the "valid stack region" and DOES NOT grow the stack at all. SSR1 indicates that no registers were modified so the kernel does no adjustment of 'sp'. The instruction is NOT restarted and a SIGSEGV signal is sent to the program. The problem appears to be only when doing FP instructions, fixed point operations do not experience any difficulty. The instruction "cmp -(sp),-(sp)" for example is handled correctly." Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA18253 for pups-liszt; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 06:08:29 +1000 (EST) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Sun Oct 17 06:07:04 1999 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 13:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vtserver Message-ID: <199910162007.NAA19063@moe.2bsd.com> > From: Warren Toomey > > To: Kirk Davis > > Do you know of anyone that has used it on a /34? I've punched in the > > bootstrap and ran it. It loads the boot file from my Linux system. > > It appears to call it but it halts somewhere in the 70000-70040 region. > > Nothing comes up on the console. Looks like the memory is over written > > with the same values over and over again in this area. Any thoughts? > > > Sorry for the delay Kirk. It could be that the V7 bootstrap expects > split I/D, or a different I/O mapping then what's provided on the /34. > > I'll punt this to the PUPS mailing list. I have a suspicion that > you won't be able to install V7, but you should be able to install V6 > or 2.9BSD instead. I _think_ I know what the problem is... While the /34 (and /40, etc) can run a stripped down V7 (the necessary mch.s code exists for example) the kernels that come with the distribution are split I&D kernels. /hptmunix, etc are all split I/D executables. Thus you'll be able to toggle in the bootstrap and get /boot loaded but then fault when loading and/or trying to execute the kernel. As I recall the usual way to get Unix on to a /23, 34,etc was to have a 11/70 around to do the build on, then stage/create the media (usually an RL02 or similar) on the 70 and sneakernet the pack over to the /34. At least that is how it was done when we shoehorned V7 into an 11/23. Of course we "cheated" in that we had a fellow around who made the necessary changes to the assembler/compiler/linker to handle kernel overlays (preceeded the use of them in 2BSD by several years). Thus we could run a larger kernel than a pure/stock V7. It was an "interesting" experience running V7 on an 11/23 (maxed out with 248kb of memory which was fairly expensive at the time). There was just enough memory left after the kernel was loaded for a couple user processes. Thus as the '#' prompt you would run "ls" the shell ('sh') would get swapped out, the 'ls' would run, and then 'sh' would get swapped back in. Uh, slowed things down just a _little_ bit :-) Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com From pups at mrynet.com Wed Oct 20 23:28:36 1999 From: pups at mrynet.com (PUPS mailing list) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:28:36 +0000 Subject: booting archived Sys III and Ultrix 3.x images Message-ID: <199910202028.NAA49448@mrynet.com> Has anyone successfully booted either the System III (...Distributions/usdl/SysIII/) or Ultrix (...Distritutions/dec/Ultrix*) tape images? I don't have a real PDP-11 any more, however both the Begemot P11 and the Supnik emulators produce the following on a generated boot disk: #0=unixhptm ka6 = 1535 aps = 141774 pc = 1476 ps = 30010 trap type 0 ka6 = 1535 aps = 141666 pc = 113444 ps = 30300 trap type 0 panic: trap The Ultrix images both fail to actually boot from tape, as they quit after reading the first boot block. Thus I am unable get as far as being able to generate a disk image for booting. I'm somewhat confident that my tape image booting and system generation procedures used with the Supnik emulator are working properly, since I successfully generate disk systems from both the V7 (Bostic) and the 2.11BSD boot-tape images. Any info and interest of others gleefully appreciated :) -skots -- Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor at mrynet.com MRY Systems staylor at mrynet.lv (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") ----- Labak miris neka sarkans ----- From sms at moe.2bsd.com Thu Oct 21 12:59:53 1999 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: booting archived Sys III and Ultrix 3.x images Message-ID: <199910210259.TAA16059@moe.2bsd.com> Howdy - > From: pups at mrynet.com (PUPS mailing list) > > Has anyone successfully booted either the System III > (...Distributions/usdl/SysIII/) or Ultrix (...Distritutions/dec/Ultrix*) > tape images? I don't have a real PDP-11 any more, however both the I don't know what the problem with Ultrix is but I suspect your trouble with System-III is similar to what I wasted a couple days on eons ago Spent a fruitless couple days trying to get Sys-III going on a 11/44 only to have it dawn on me that Sys-III didn't have *any* UMR support except for the DH-11 - thus an 11/70 with MASSBUS devices was the only thing Sys-III would run on. As far as I know no effort was put into Sys-III to deal with 22 bit machines that didn't have a MASSBUS (a la 11/70). PERHAPS that is what is biting you? Feels likely. I know that no effort was put in to supporting UMRs on 22bit systems such as the 11/44. The Supnik and Begemot emulators offer up a ~kdj-11 (11/53, 73, ...) and not an 11/70 so it could be that Sys-III is trying to do something 11/70'ish that KDJ-11 based systems don't offer. Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA00889 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:39:50 +1000 (EST) From basker at protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in Thu Oct 21 13:04:09 1999 From: basker at protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in (P.BASKER) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:34:09 +0530 (IST) Subject: assembler? In-Reply-To: <199910210259.TAA16059@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: Hi , Im interested in a PDP-11 assembler that has the MACRO-11 syntax, I got a book, "Introduction to Computer Systems using the PDP-11 and Pascal" by McEwans, Thought it would be nice to have the assembler to check out. I hope the assembler is a load and go assembler cum simulator. I want to check out some PDP-11 assembly on my linux machine. Does anyone remember a program called "apout" I think that might work for cross development (learning). Bye P.Basker Research Program Asst, ECE Dept IISc, India Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA01039 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:03:45 +1000 (EST) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Thu Oct 21 14:02:36 1999 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:02:36 +1000 (EST) Subject: assembler? In-Reply-To: from "P.BASKER" at "Oct 21, 1999 8:34: 9 am" Message-ID: <199910210402.OAA00539@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by P.BASKER: > Hi , > Im interested in a PDP-11 assembler that has the MACRO-11 syntax, > I got a book, "Introduction to Computer Systems using the PDP-11 and > Pascal" by McEwans, Thought it would be nice to have the assembler to > check out. I hope the assembler is a load and go assembler cum simulator. > I want to check out some PDP-11 assembly on my linux machine. > > Does anyone remember a program called "apout" I think that might work for > cross development (learning). > Bye Yes, I wrote Apout. It runs user-mode programs from V5, V6, V7, 2.9BSD and 2.11BSD. So if you could find an assembler for any of these systems which met your requirements, and produced .o files which could be linked using the normal Unix linker, you'd be okay. However, I haven't heard of a Unix assembler with MACRO-11 syntax, and Apout only runs PDP-11 Unix binaries. So you probably would be better off with a full emulator running a DEC OS with MACRO-11. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA01742 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:06:23 +1000 (EST) From wilko at yedi.iaf.nl Thu Oct 21 09:01:53 1999 From: wilko at yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 01:01:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: booting archived Sys III and Ultrix 3.x images In-Reply-To: <199910202028.NAA49448@mrynet.com> from PUPS mailing list at "Oct 20, 1999 1:28:36 pm" Message-ID: <199910202301.BAA44603@yedi.iaf.nl> As PUPS mailing list wrote ... > Has anyone successfully booted either the System III > (...Distributions/usdl/SysIII/) or Ultrix (...Distritutions/dec/Ultrix*) > tape images? I don't have a real PDP-11 any more, however both the Ultrix-11 V3.1 works just fine on my 11/83. I supplied the binary images to PUPS from the .5" reel tape ;-) So, yes it can work. My PDP is now running 2.11BSD btw. -- | / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD - |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nl http://www.freebsd.org Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA03366 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 00:56:31 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com Fri Oct 22 00:54:58 1999 From: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com (Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 99 09:54:58 -0500 Subject: Program to read unknown tapes Message-ID: <9910211454.AA25265@meson.jpsystems.com> Hi everyone, I have already posted this program to the PUPS list back in December 1998, but people are asking for it again, and also there are people on the Quasijarus list and not on the PUPS list who want it, so I'm posting it again, to both lists. This program can read a tape on a UNIX box without the user having to know anything about its format. This program automatically determines how many files are on the tape, what is the record size for each, and whether there are any oddities such as partial records. It saves each tape file into a separate disk file and produces a log of everything found on the tape. It's a simple C program and should compile and run on virtually any UNIX or UNIX-like system. The original version was written by one guy I met on another list once and then it was significantly enhanced by me. I include it below as a uuencoded 'compress -s'ed tarball. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Computer Operation Facility Special Agent 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY #4 International Free Computing Task Force DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 ARPA INET: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com Enclosure: uuencoded cptape.tar.Z: begin 644 cptape.tar.Z M'Z'M6&U3&S<0YJOU*P0T at PW&^,`X&3NF0PBT:0G,0-(WFNF(.YU]PUER[^08 MFO#?N[LZ^>X<4MK.0#[D=B;#25KMR[-O[>[L[NZTM[UM8FOO+O'V0QKE:)H:D7"^-+Y..]U_X'L[ M#,X?PYY'IE6V"A%XG64!#W7"_8D1$\E6&3M]\<. at -A:1:FEV?G:0??N,'1P= M[W]W/JAMGC)FV7NU;^K`WF`UW^?VDV]J)XM]:3Z_?'WXL#KNJ7^O MLUVH_YVGR-;>[5;U_QAD"Y0G4 at 0I%YP6D>):29Z.M&GR22S\2`VY%/[('E.C MB)31P)_*B4B$D3R(TBM&)T(%/-;#(5XR(^2$IC(6)M**BTL]-:#,UTG`T^@O MF;9<`R%%,OTW>NR)$F,9\#7\;BFUUN2SD4PD4XI'*2DV,[T91,/(P.T_IU*9 M2,1<3<>7,N$Z)!82!'81.^JL@^^!]*.QB!DFAD$O9I$9\;;7:/$W(YG:6P!6 M(KD/N!FP(K(B_&F2@!XP$EPT.KEI\2-HJ&84I0PX4ZW(2D5PHV3!E9R1YB9! M/M/3..`*\8KCFTP\<,T%4H..3)/Y`0=@X(OP3J8J:[4\3/08C4DD0'LREV0/ M(:2HX%+2#9&"N#C6L[0WC\)F3.98%Y^G$\!"Q'N,$;CYAL,8@^#`3(1U!0!\ M'_F at S/(27$TN6\-6DVW!V99*QJ:-8(*0613'N9]W!99I00L!ACRM4GM*5N?)R)RFUM MI/U, at U1!%#(&PX(/I=$3P^N-/I/71B;0&$<0X'78%,EPOHFLL!6IH(E_P;)^ MKA_4G;_Z[=":T-UYUJEMK?-]'_VGJ:;Y&,99O=-H\K&XMGA=QMJ_LFVD!@2@ M8C>I:UP_[?^"S=/K_MC*&+?(* MD1J0JB,`&P\1HCJ M_?[6-DBH,2>&N4.=:LVOP`UOAG#IGUN>G"!QE0@^2IY_S/ M>9ODH^H)B-1)?67^_%E!?CQ)I)E"AGA]6D'D<7YCS(3B=`E#5KOE,H:W0%G! M8%#0@$<.T8;=@A,RR8]U*NL(7P-.:KA=M`D>29.I#4>/$R\91SSR.C)UCY:W M\&^20"#"^LH;<&,LDBL8M#`4H6QI*JX^:6]/?U@ZG`X=X^VW/]F<<;W^).XA$@SPQ5H'D?R!S7-B]#RA)F6;+O) M5X[^NY8[5*69W+R`0#1U192\$#W,&@@6O9E*-]K=;G=NN>4:\$WO_ at 1#29]- ML$)^>#;,ME2S?*GE-0T[A9K]-),6BG%Y4.@')2.S4/XL$@61[#E at 5P'3(F"46XRR@[4_,H+.#N$JH0YMJG,?X?=MRO^C;+YV)CFR=&EO.PC5^V4>3M MK23(N5"ZMUR(1,.6QUV!)^&EXO7ZME#S-N=*F=KU+9Z%]H1E-7UR^N;L&AC0)NS$8JNUWW8L\^)@A^0$'%O MI=%`D`]/CPC>%'Y-P.^3ND\K7T#36XO7>A:]LB/N&6*##0&Z at F]X=HAI;'KN M[K?NKC6-&G61/XN&M1:CG[GP\6/VID'CT&1HL1[9Y+(:WFG`"SY,4S'$VKL-WH+^HK^)0-;!>.$'M%\1QTS5;<*%[.*ZT\AHL" M,V?S/E1R=R&^&)(+Z_2[?H$C(*S!E")_DY_^7?N]75%%%%554444555111155 /5%%%7Q_]#6D82E<`*``` ` end From bdc at world.std.com Tue Oct 26 02:34:40 1999 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian D Chase) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 09:34:40 -0700 Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? Message-ID: Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or 7th Edition? -brian. --- Brian Chase | bdc at world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA27477 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 03:20:12 +1000 (EST) From pups at mrynet.com Mon Oct 25 20:19:54 1999 From: pups at mrynet.com (PUPS mailing list) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:19:54 +0000 Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? Message-ID: <199910251719.KAA77523@mrynet.com> Brian Chase asked: > Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the > BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or > 7th Edition? I see it on the System III and Version 7 systems. I don't see it in V6 distro however. Cheers, -skots -- Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor at mrynet.com MRY Systems staylor at mrynet.lv (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") ----- Labak miris neka sarkans ----- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA27681 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 04:03:31 +1000 (EST) From enf at pobox.com Tue Oct 26 04:15:15 1999 From: enf at pobox.com (Eric Fischer) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:15:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199910251815.NAA25814@216-80-13-97.d.enteract.com> Brian D. Chase writes, > Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the > BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or > 7th Edition? It appears in the First Edition manual, and according to A Quarter Century of Unix, it's even older than that. "There was also a version of dc, desk calculator, a very very early program. That was actually the first program that ran on the PDP-11. It ran standalone before there was an operating system." (p. 35) eric Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA27847 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 04:24:20 +1000 (EST) From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Tue Oct 26 04:23:48 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:23:48 -0600 (MDT) Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: from Brian D Chase at "Oct 25, 1999 09:34:40 am" Message-ID: <19991025182355Z433932-29789+188@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the > BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or > 7th Edition? > I think it was in 6th, but thats straining my memory a bit. -- Dr. Mark Green mark at cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Oct 26 10:07:44 1999 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:07:44 +1000 (EST) Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: <199910251815.NAA25814@216-80-13-97.d.enteract.com> from Eric Fischer at "Oct 25, 1999 1:15:15 pm" Message-ID: <199910260007.KAA16993@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Eric Fischer: > Brian D. Chase writes, > > > Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the > > BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or > > 7th Edition? > > It appears in the First Edition manual, and according to A Quarter > Century of Unix, it's even older than that. > eric There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive: -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29099 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:24:03 +1000 (EST) From bdc at world.std.com Tue Oct 26 10:23:42 1999 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian D Chase) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:23:42 -0700 Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: <199910260007.KAA16993@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Warren Toomey wrote: > There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive: > > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc Hmmm... did the permissions on files have the same meaning back in 1973 as they do now? Group and "other" writeable system binaries? Tsk tsk tsk. Well I suppose just because someone has written the Unix operating system, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a very good Unix sysadmin. -brian. --- Brian Chase | bdc at world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----- "Captain, we're experiencing a high rate of packet collisions!" -- K. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29144 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:27:16 +1000 (EST) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Oct 26 10:27:09 1999 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:27:09 +1000 (EST) Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: from Brian D Chase at "Oct 25, 1999 5:23:42 pm" Message-ID: <199910260027.KAA17113@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Brian D Chase: > On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Warren Toomey wrote: > > > There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive: > > > > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc > > Hmmm... did the permissions on files have the same meaning back in 1973 as > they do now? Group and "other" writeable system binaries? Tsk tsk tsk. > > Well I suppose just because someone has written the Unix operating system, > it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a very good Unix sysadmin. No, the perms have got stuffed up in conversion from 1st Ed permissions to the tar archive. 1st Edition had no groups, and only had perms 01 write for other 02 read for other 04 write for owner [ all octal values ] 10 read for owner 20 executable 40 set-UID Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29265 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:36:34 +1000 (EST) From dave at fgh.geac.com.au Tue Oct 26 10:33:59 1999 From: dave at fgh.geac.com.au (Dave Horsfall) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:33:59 +1000 (EST) Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Brian D Chase wrote: > > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc > > Hmmm... did the permissions on files have the same meaning back in 1973 as > they do now? Group and "other" writeable system binaries? Tsk tsk tsk. I don't believe the concept of group permissions existed then... > Well I suppose just because someone has written the Unix operating system, > it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a very good Unix sysadmin. On the other hand, people actually trusted each other, because you all worked with each other, and it was common for someone to write a utility and stick it on the system. Hint: /usr wasn't called that for no reason... -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave at geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia From grog at lemis.com Wed Oct 27 12:15:01 1999 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 22:15:01 -0400 Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: <199910260007.KAA16993@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from Warren Toomey on Tue, Oct 26, 1999 at 10:07:44AM +1000 References: <199910251815.NAA25814@216-80-13-97.d.enteract.com> <199910260007.KAA16993@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <19991026221501.47539@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> On Tuesday, 26 October 1999 at 10:07:44 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Eric Fischer: >> Brian D. Chase writes, >> >>> Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the >>> BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or >>> 7th Edition? >> >> It appears in the First Edition manual, and according to A Quarter >> Century of Unix, it's even older than that. >> eric > > There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive: > > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc Wouldn't that be the Third Edition with that timestamp? I won't comment again about the permissions. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Thu Oct 28 09:48:08 1999 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:48:08 +1000 (EST) Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: <19991026221501.47539@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Oct 26, 1999 10:15: 1 pm" Message-ID: <199910272348.JAA26787@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Greg Lehey: > > There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive: > > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc > > Wouldn't that be the Third Edition with that timestamp? I won't > comment again about the permissions. > Greg The binary is an 0405 a.out file. I'm told by Norman Wilson, who has paper copies of the 2nd & 3rd Edition manuals, that 0405 binaries didn't exist in 2nd & 3rd Edition. I also believe that the files in the s2.tar tarball sent in by Dennis are a whole year off, and so the date above should be Apr 14, 1972. That dates the file just before the release of 2nd Edition. I really need to sit down & outline my reasons for believing that the dates are a year out. I'll do so soon & email it here! Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA41918 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:49:29 +1000 (EST) From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca Thu Oct 28 09:48:50 1999 From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:48:50 -0400 Subject: dc and date numerology Message-ID: <199910272349.JAA41914@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Greg Lehey wondered about the date in > There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive: > > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc 1973 is indeed post-Second-Edition. But it's not the right date; just as the permission flags were different in the early years, so was the date representation. Here are some gleanings from old manuals that tell the story. The relatively recent ls or tar or whatnot that printed the line above presumably interpreted the date as if it were in modern form: seconds since 1 Jan 1970 UTC. So the raw number stored in the i-node was probably about 105000000 decimal (30 Apr 1973 in my time zone), or about 1200 days into the epoch. But the file system described in the First Edition manual takes the date as a count of clock ticks since 1 Jan 1971. The clock ticked at 60Hz, so the date is really about 1200/60 = 20 days into the epoch; if this file came from a 1e file system, it was written on 21 Jan 1971. The trouble with keeping a 60Hz clock in a 32-bit number is that it takes just a couple of years before it overflows. A band-aid had been stuck on by the time the Third Edition manual was printed: the base date changed to 1 Jan 1972. So maybe bin/dc was written on 21 Jan 1972 instead. There's no way to tell just from the bits in the i-node. The modern time format (1-second resolution) appeared in the Fourth Edition manual. It is probably not a coincidence that the file system format changed a lot at the same time; groups appeared, permission modes changed to approximately their current form, directory entries changed, and so on. The 60Hz scheme seems to have come from the PDP-7, on which it made more sense; the -7 has 36-bit words, so a 60Hz counter lasts 16 times longer. I bet the base date changed at least once between the original PDP-7 system and the PDP-11 as well, since 1 Jan 1971 seems too recent for the PDP-7 system. See http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/~norman/old-unix/old-fs.html for many more such grotty details, collected in an insomniac night with a stack of old manuals some months ago. Norman Wilson Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA42069 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:02:33 +1000 (EST) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Thu Oct 28 10:02:25 1999 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:02:25 +1000 (EST) Subject: dc and date numerology In-Reply-To: <199910272349.JAA41914@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman@nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Oct 27, 1999 7:48:50 pm" Message-ID: <199910280002.KAA26898@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca: > Greg Lehey wondered about the date in > > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc > > 1973 is indeed post-Second-Edition. But it's not the right date; just as > the permission flags were different in the early years, so was the date > representation. Here are some gleanings from old manuals that tell the > story. [ much omitted ] Norman details the fact that early Unixes stored time in 60ths of a second, i.e the normal clock tick, and as such, a 32-bit integer overflows in around 2.5 years. However, I think Norman is not exactly right when he said that the tar archive was reinterpreting this 1/60 sec time in units of seconds. Dennis Ritchie, with help from Keith Bostic and a DECtape drive, managed to retrieve these files from an old DECtape. These old files were stored in tap(1) archive format. Dennis wrote a program to read in the tap(1) format archives and extract their contents while trying to maintain the _correct_ permissions and timestamps. Here is his email describing this: The tapes were written in either the 'tap' or 'tp' format, which are similar in that they have a directory of up to 192 entries at the start with names and other information including the size and tape address of the files. 'tp' was the later format, and was in use by November 1973, the date of the 4th edition manual. With `tap', the times associated with the files were recorded in pre-modern units: sixtieths of a second, from an origin that changed. The first three editions of the manual had BUGS sections noting that 32 bits can represent only about 2.5 years in this unit, and this implied continuing crises as the time overflowed. I believe that the change to use seconds for Unix time took place along with the change to the C version of the operating system, which occurred about the end of the summer of 1973, and also that the change from `tap' to `tp' took place at the same time. (This is consistent with the dates of the 3rd and 4th edition manuals). Thus the dates recorded with the `tp' tapes probably correspond reliably to the modification dates of the files at the time of saving them (of course, this gives only a upper bound on their creation, since they might have been copied or trivially touched just before saving them). Recovering the proper dates for the `tap' tapes is less reliable, because there was at least one change of epoch (from 1971 to 1972) during the period they could possibly have been produced. I believe that the 1972 epoch is most likely the correct one for the tapes here. In other words, Dennis had to guess the epoch when recovering these files. He got it right with the `nsys' kernel files, because there is enough other data lying around documenting the kernel rewrite from assembly to C, and the inclusion of pipes into the kernel. However, with the s2.tar archive, I think Dennis got the epoch one year out, i.e everything should be dated a year earlier. The most obvious is that there are so many 0405 magic a.out files in the archive, and apparently this a.out format disappeared in the 2nd Edition. Cheers all, Warren From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Fri Oct 1 12:11:52 1999 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 12:11:52 +1000 (EST) Subject: Access to PUPS Archive In-Reply-To: from Lord Isildur at "Sep 30, 1999 9:58:17 am" Message-ID: <199910010211.MAA03219@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Lord Isildur: > hello, > > alas, i do not have an account on the PUPS Archive machine! could i have one? > i remember vaguely something about requiring pgp-signed stuff, and i dont > use pgp, and so dont have a public (or any other) key. > isildur Here's the policy for the machine holding the PUPS Archive: + People with UNIX source licenses can get at least guest FTP access to the archive, with S/Key as the authentication mechanism. + People with UNIX source licenses, and who either help to maintain the archive, or who have volunteered to distribute the archive, can get ssh access to the machine. + No telnet access, no e-mail. The box runs with `reserved tolerance' from the real system administrators :-) If you fall into either category, and can prove you have a UNIX source license, then I can either PGP e-mail you, or fax you, the access details. Apologies for the cross-post to the 3 old UNIX-related mailing lists! Cheers, Warren From grog at lemis.com Sat Oct 2 19:03:49 1999 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 18:33:49 +0930 Subject: UNIX Milestones (was: Unix Calendar in Germany (Request for some help)) Message-ID: <19991002183348.C40186@freebie.lemis.com> Anybody here interested in helping? Greg ----- Forwarded message from Christoph Kaeder ----- > Delivered-To: freebsd-questions at freebsd.org > Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:53:14 +0200 > Organization: Lehmanns Fachbuchhandlung > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [de] (Win95; I) > To: freebsd-questions at FreeBSD.ORG > X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Precedence: bulk > > Hello. > > Lehmanns bookshop in Germany will print a > Unix-Freeware-Calender in > postersize and give it away for FREE (300.000 copies / > 4-colour!). > > The calendar will include over 100 remarkable days from the > History of Unix, Linux, Freeware and Open Source. > > > Would you like to add some remarkable days from the > FreeBSD-History? > Release days or ... > > > - calendar-home : http://www.lob.de/cal0 > - first look (JPEG): http://www.lob.de/cal1 > - a detail: http://www.lob.de/cal2 > - form to add your remarkable days: http://www.lob.de/cal3 > > And if you agree we would like to add the FreeBSD Daemon on > this calender beside the Tux, TeX-Lion, Perl Camel ... > > Do you agree to this and can you send us a Tif or JPEG? > We need it with 300 dpi, 4-colour, about 1 inch high > > Thanks. > Christoph Kaeder > -- > > * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - > * -- * > Lehmanns Fachbuchhandlung fuer Informatik, Medizin und > Psychologie > Hermannstrasse 17 / 20095 Hamburg / GERMANY / > hh-city at lehmanns.de > Telefon 040 - 336384 / Fax 040-338955 / International: > 0049-40-... > http://www.lob.de / Mo - Fr von 10 bis 20 und Sa von 10 bis > 16 Uhr > * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - > * -- * > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo at FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message ----- End forwarded message ----- -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Thu Oct 14 16:34:43 1999 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:34:43 +1000 Subject: vtserver In-Reply-To: ; from Kirk Davis on Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:19:54PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <19991014163422.C41213@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:19:54PM -0700, Kirk Davis wrote: > Warren, > I've been checking out your vtserver program. It's a great idea > and it's been fun to play with. I'm bringing up a /34 and have been > collecting parts for it for a few months. I've got it set up with > a few RL02's on it. Few questions for you: > > Do you know of anyone that has used it on a /34? I've punched in the > bootstrap and ran it. It loads the boot file from my Linux system. > It appears to call it but it halts somewhere in the 70000-70040 region. > Nothing comes up on the console. Looks like the memory is over written > with the same values over and over again in this area. Any thoughts? > > I'm working on getting a source license from SCO. I'd love to hack on > this with you if you are interested in any help. Sorry for the delay Kirk. It could be that the V7 bootstrap expects split I/D, or a different I/O mapping then what's provided on the /34. I'll punt this to the PUPS mailing list. I have a suspicion that you won't be able to install V7, but you should be able to install V6 or 2.9BSD instead. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA02824 for pups-liszt; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 03:40:02 +1000 (EST) From wilko at yedi.iaf.nl Fri Oct 15 03:18:02 1999 From: wilko at yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 19:18:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: vtserver In-Reply-To: <19991014163422.C41213@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Warren Toomey at "Oct 14, 1999 4:34:43 pm" Message-ID: <199910141718.TAA01066@yedi.iaf.nl> As Warren Toomey wrote ... > On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:19:54PM -0700, Kirk Davis wrote: > > Warren, > > I've been checking out your vtserver program. It's a great idea > > and it's been fun to play with. I'm bringing up a /34 and have been > > collecting parts for it for a few months. I've got it set up with > > a few RL02's on it. Few questions for you: > > > > Do you know of anyone that has used it on a /34? I've punched in the > > bootstrap and ran it. It loads the boot file from my Linux system. > > It appears to call it but it halts somewhere in the 70000-70040 region. > > Nothing comes up on the console. Looks like the memory is over written > > with the same values over and over again in this area. Any thoughts? > > > > I'm working on getting a source license from SCO. I'd love to hack on > > this with you if you are interested in any help. > > Sorry for the delay Kirk. It could be that the V7 bootstrap expects > split I/D, or a different I/O mapping then what's provided on the /34. > > I'll punt this to the PUPS mailing list. I have a suspicion that > you won't be able to install V7, but you should be able to install V6 > or 2.9BSD instead. I once had Ultrix-11 3.1 running on a dual RK05 11/34. What I'd call a very minimal system ;-) But it ran -- | / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD - |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nl http://www.freebsd.org Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA03106 for pups-liszt; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 04:38:33 +1000 (EST) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Fri Oct 15 04:36:52 1999 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vtserver Message-ID: <199910141836.LAA21478@moe.2bsd.com> Hi - > From: Wilko Bulte I will be doing some more research on this when I get home from work tonight. > I once had Ultrix-11 3.1 running on a dual RK05 11/34. What I'd call a > very minimal system ;-) But it ran That is because DEC put the extra effort into supporting non-split I/D machines. The "stock" V7 really wanted a 11/70. In fact there was a chapter in the back of one of the manuals/books detailing what it took to get V7 running on an 11/40 (it was a non-trivial project). Several things conspire against V7 and later on 11/34 (or 35, 40, 60, etc). The two most notable ones are the limited address space, everything (drivers, data structures, general kernel code) must fit in 56kb instead of 120kb - (8kb reserved for the I/O page) and lack of instruction restart on MMU faults. I'll take a look at the V7 layout later but my memory is that it wanted an 11/70. Steven Schultz Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA03622 for pups-liszt; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 06:04:30 +1000 (EST) From m at mbsks.franken.de Fri Oct 15 05:59:50 1999 From: m at mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 21:59:50 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: vtserver In-Reply-To: <199910141718.TAA01066@yedi.iaf.nl> from Wilko Bulte at "Oct 14, 99 07:18:02 pm" Message-ID: Mahlzeit As Warren Toomey wrote ... > Sorry for the delay Kirk. It could be that the V7 bootstrap expects > split I/D, or a different I/O mapping then what's provided on the /34. I'm 99% sure, that it's V7 which I have running (for lower values of running, because one drive is dead and the power supply needs to be replaced) on my 11/34A with 128kB RAM and two RL01. I think I wanted to install V6, but installed V7 because of the RL01 drivers. I stripped V7 down, so I only needed one RL01 disk pack (I have only two.) and transfered the disk image via kermit. I want to install 2.11BSD on my M70 with 512kB RAM (No, more RAM is to expensive here. 1MB for over US$500.) and a 120MB ST506-type disk, but had not much time. I want to avoid the way of the disk image, because I have no BSD installed for the emulator and don't know, if the transfere of slices of the disk image would be successfull. (The RT-11 only handles 32MB "disks".) I think the best way would be to boot from a 2.11BSD floppy and install it via serial port. (TU-58 emu? Are there 1.2MB 2.11BSD floppies somewhere?) Mahlzeit endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside From RBROADWAY at tbs-ltd.co.uk Fri Oct 15 18:08:32 1999 From: RBROADWAY at tbs-ltd.co.uk (Broadway, Rusel) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:08:32 +0100 Subject: Help! Message-ID: <9114940C5E0FD31186950008C7B9A6021844C2@coexch.tbs-ltd.co.uk> Hi. I have been given a Bull DSP 2/300 system. The machine is running B.O.S. version 02.00.12. The machine boots and runs fine and I cal login as Root and look around the system. The problem I have is that the B.O.S. operating system is a Unix look-a-like and I can find no-one who actually knows anything about the box. Most Unix commands work but, being a VMS guy, I can't run the machine like my Digital MV 2's. Does anyone know anything about these machines? I particularly want to have a bash at programming the machine. It appears to have C (This should be fun. I've not touched C for 12 years!) Also. I have two Digital Micro Vax 2's. The both have hardware problems in that a) One machine has a system disk which will not come up to speed and b) The other has a corrupted system_primitives.exe on VMS 5.5-H and so I can't run either of them! Anyone know where I can get spares which are pre-loaded? I really would appreciate any help or advice/ pointers etc that anyone can give. Rusel Broadway Senior Systems Analyst DDI: 01206-25-5745 ********************** N O T I C E ********************************* This information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review , retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this error, please contact the sender and delete all copies of the message. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses, however we cannot guarantee that this message is free from such problems. ********************************************************************** Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA17930 for pups-liszt; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 05:02:44 +1000 (EST) From simul8 at simul8.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 17 05:11:03 1999 From: simul8 at simul8.demon.co.uk (James Lothian) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 20:11:03 +0100 Subject: vtserver References: <199910141836.LAA21478@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <3808CDC7.210BC969@simul8.demon.co.uk> Hmm.. I seem to remember, from when I was thinking about rolling my own 11 OS a few years ago, that the /34 differs from most of the other mid-range 11s in automatically restoring the CPU registers on a page fault. I think I picked this up from the differences table in the /04, /34 & /60 CPU handbook. (This was unfortunately no use at all to me, as I've got a /40 not a /34.) Of course, that was a while ago and I might be wrong. James "Steven M. Schultz" wrote: > > Hi - > > > From: Wilko Bulte > > I will be doing some more research on this when I get home from > work tonight. > > > I once had Ultrix-11 3.1 running on a dual RK05 11/34. What I'd call a > > very minimal system ;-) But it ran > > That is because DEC put the extra effort into supporting non-split I/D > machines. The "stock" V7 really wanted a 11/70. In fact there was a > chapter in the back of one of the manuals/books detailing what it took > to get V7 running on an 11/40 (it was a non-trivial project). > > Several things conspire against V7 and later on 11/34 (or 35, 40, 60, > etc). The two most notable ones are the limited address space, > everything (drivers, data structures, general kernel code) must fit > in 56kb instead of 120kb - (8kb reserved for the I/O page) and lack > of instruction restart on MMU faults. > > I'll take a look at the V7 layout later but my memory is that it > wanted an 11/70. > > Steven Schultz Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA18139 for pups-liszt; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 05:47:02 +1000 (EST) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Sun Oct 17 05:42:14 1999 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vtserver Message-ID: <199910161942.MAA18843@moe.2bsd.com> Hi - > From: James Lothian > > Hmm.. I seem to remember, from when I was thinking about rolling my own > 11 OS a few years ago, that the /34 differs from most of the other > mid-range 11s in automatically restoring the CPU registers on a page fault. I It's not the automatically restoring that is the problem - the /34, /40 (/60, etc) lack the MMU registers that record by how much the cpu registers have incremented/decremented at the time an instruction has faulted. SSR1 and SSR2 located at 0177574 and 0177576 respectively. From the module which handles the instruction restart (mch_backup.s): * 11/40 version of backup, for use with no SSR1 and SSR2. Actually SSR1 * usually exists for all processors except the '34 and '40 but always * reads as zero on those without separate I&D ... What is a dozen lines of code if those registers exist turns into over 300 lines and even then there is no guarantee (fortunately the C compiler does not generate the sequences that can not be handled) it will work. What's instruction restart used for? The most common case is growing the stack. The stack for a process starts out small and then kernel will automatically extend it downwards IF an instruction faults when accessing the stack area: sub $N,sp mov $xxx, XX(sp) mov -(r4), X(sp) for dealing with local variables in a function. The other case is when calling a function: mov (r0)+, -(sp) mov $xxx, -(sp) jsr pc, function If the reference to (sp) is made and the instruction faults the kernel will determine if the current stack needs to be extended. It will then restart the faulted instruction - but to do that it needs to know what other registers ('r0', 'r4', etc...) might have been already changed so that it can back out those changes before restarting the instruction. In the case of the 11/44, 70, 73, etc there are MMU registers that will record the fact that "R0" or "r4" or whatever was changed by 2 or not. On the /34 and /40 that capability does not exist and the kernel can not _always_ guarantee things will work. MOST of the time it will but... Interestingly enough there is a difference between the KDJ-11 (11/73) family and the other 11s which have the SSR1, and 2. From the bug report and fix for 2.11BSD (update #150): "The problem is that the KDJ-11 processes the double word store of the 'movfi' differently than the 11/44 or 11/70. On other systems (such as the 11/44) the first word is stored successfully at 0175000 then the program faults when trying to access 0174776 but SP is left at 0174776 with SSR1 (memory management status register 1) indicating that 'sp' was decremented by 4. The kernel adjusts 'sp', grows the stack and restarts the instruction. The 'movfi' then completes successfully. On a KDJ-11 cpu the story is different. The fault is generated as expected BUT 'SP' IS STILL 0175002! The kernel sees that 'sp' is still within the "valid stack region" and DOES NOT grow the stack at all. SSR1 indicates that no registers were modified so the kernel does no adjustment of 'sp'. The instruction is NOT restarted and a SIGSEGV signal is sent to the program. The problem appears to be only when doing FP instructions, fixed point operations do not experience any difficulty. The instruction "cmp -(sp),-(sp)" for example is handled correctly." Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA18253 for pups-liszt; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 06:08:29 +1000 (EST) From sms at moe.2bsd.com Sun Oct 17 06:07:04 1999 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 13:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vtserver Message-ID: <199910162007.NAA19063@moe.2bsd.com> > From: Warren Toomey > > To: Kirk Davis > > Do you know of anyone that has used it on a /34? I've punched in the > > bootstrap and ran it. It loads the boot file from my Linux system. > > It appears to call it but it halts somewhere in the 70000-70040 region. > > Nothing comes up on the console. Looks like the memory is over written > > with the same values over and over again in this area. Any thoughts? > > > Sorry for the delay Kirk. It could be that the V7 bootstrap expects > split I/D, or a different I/O mapping then what's provided on the /34. > > I'll punt this to the PUPS mailing list. I have a suspicion that > you won't be able to install V7, but you should be able to install V6 > or 2.9BSD instead. I _think_ I know what the problem is... While the /34 (and /40, etc) can run a stripped down V7 (the necessary mch.s code exists for example) the kernels that come with the distribution are split I&D kernels. /hptmunix, etc are all split I/D executables. Thus you'll be able to toggle in the bootstrap and get /boot loaded but then fault when loading and/or trying to execute the kernel. As I recall the usual way to get Unix on to a /23, 34,etc was to have a 11/70 around to do the build on, then stage/create the media (usually an RL02 or similar) on the 70 and sneakernet the pack over to the /34. At least that is how it was done when we shoehorned V7 into an 11/23. Of course we "cheated" in that we had a fellow around who made the necessary changes to the assembler/compiler/linker to handle kernel overlays (preceeded the use of them in 2BSD by several years). Thus we could run a larger kernel than a pure/stock V7. It was an "interesting" experience running V7 on an 11/23 (maxed out with 248kb of memory which was fairly expensive at the time). There was just enough memory left after the kernel was loaded for a couple user processes. Thus as the '#' prompt you would run "ls" the shell ('sh') would get swapped out, the 'ls' would run, and then 'sh' would get swapped back in. Uh, slowed things down just a _little_ bit :-) Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com From pups at mrynet.com Wed Oct 20 23:28:36 1999 From: pups at mrynet.com (PUPS mailing list) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:28:36 +0000 Subject: booting archived Sys III and Ultrix 3.x images Message-ID: <199910202028.NAA49448@mrynet.com> Has anyone successfully booted either the System III (...Distributions/usdl/SysIII/) or Ultrix (...Distritutions/dec/Ultrix*) tape images? I don't have a real PDP-11 any more, however both the Begemot P11 and the Supnik emulators produce the following on a generated boot disk: #0=unixhptm ka6 = 1535 aps = 141774 pc = 1476 ps = 30010 trap type 0 ka6 = 1535 aps = 141666 pc = 113444 ps = 30300 trap type 0 panic: trap The Ultrix images both fail to actually boot from tape, as they quit after reading the first boot block. Thus I am unable get as far as being able to generate a disk image for booting. I'm somewhat confident that my tape image booting and system generation procedures used with the Supnik emulator are working properly, since I successfully generate disk systems from both the V7 (Bostic) and the 2.11BSD boot-tape images. Any info and interest of others gleefully appreciated :) -skots -- Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor at mrynet.com MRY Systems staylor at mrynet.lv (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") ----- Labak miris neka sarkans ----- From sms at moe.2bsd.com Thu Oct 21 12:59:53 1999 From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 19:59:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: booting archived Sys III and Ultrix 3.x images Message-ID: <199910210259.TAA16059@moe.2bsd.com> Howdy - > From: pups at mrynet.com (PUPS mailing list) > > Has anyone successfully booted either the System III > (...Distributions/usdl/SysIII/) or Ultrix (...Distritutions/dec/Ultrix*) > tape images? I don't have a real PDP-11 any more, however both the I don't know what the problem with Ultrix is but I suspect your trouble with System-III is similar to what I wasted a couple days on eons ago Spent a fruitless couple days trying to get Sys-III going on a 11/44 only to have it dawn on me that Sys-III didn't have *any* UMR support except for the DH-11 - thus an 11/70 with MASSBUS devices was the only thing Sys-III would run on. As far as I know no effort was put into Sys-III to deal with 22 bit machines that didn't have a MASSBUS (a la 11/70). PERHAPS that is what is biting you? Feels likely. I know that no effort was put in to supporting UMRs on 22bit systems such as the 11/44. The Supnik and Begemot emulators offer up a ~kdj-11 (11/53, 73, ...) and not an 11/70 so it could be that Sys-III is trying to do something 11/70'ish that KDJ-11 based systems don't offer. Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA00889 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:39:50 +1000 (EST) From basker at protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in Thu Oct 21 13:04:09 1999 From: basker at protocol.ece.iisc.ernet.in (P.BASKER) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:34:09 +0530 (IST) Subject: assembler? In-Reply-To: <199910210259.TAA16059@moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: Hi , Im interested in a PDP-11 assembler that has the MACRO-11 syntax, I got a book, "Introduction to Computer Systems using the PDP-11 and Pascal" by McEwans, Thought it would be nice to have the assembler to check out. I hope the assembler is a load and go assembler cum simulator. I want to check out some PDP-11 assembly on my linux machine. Does anyone remember a program called "apout" I think that might work for cross development (learning). Bye P.Basker Research Program Asst, ECE Dept IISc, India Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA01039 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:03:45 +1000 (EST) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Thu Oct 21 14:02:36 1999 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:02:36 +1000 (EST) Subject: assembler? In-Reply-To: from "P.BASKER" at "Oct 21, 1999 8:34: 9 am" Message-ID: <199910210402.OAA00539@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by P.BASKER: > Hi , > Im interested in a PDP-11 assembler that has the MACRO-11 syntax, > I got a book, "Introduction to Computer Systems using the PDP-11 and > Pascal" by McEwans, Thought it would be nice to have the assembler to > check out. I hope the assembler is a load and go assembler cum simulator. > I want to check out some PDP-11 assembly on my linux machine. > > Does anyone remember a program called "apout" I think that might work for > cross development (learning). > Bye Yes, I wrote Apout. It runs user-mode programs from V5, V6, V7, 2.9BSD and 2.11BSD. So if you could find an assembler for any of these systems which met your requirements, and produced .o files which could be linked using the normal Unix linker, you'd be okay. However, I haven't heard of a Unix assembler with MACRO-11 syntax, and Apout only runs PDP-11 Unix binaries. So you probably would be better off with a full emulator running a DEC OS with MACRO-11. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA01742 for pups-liszt; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:06:23 +1000 (EST) From wilko at yedi.iaf.nl Thu Oct 21 09:01:53 1999 From: wilko at yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 01:01:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: booting archived Sys III and Ultrix 3.x images In-Reply-To: <199910202028.NAA49448@mrynet.com> from PUPS mailing list at "Oct 20, 1999 1:28:36 pm" Message-ID: <199910202301.BAA44603@yedi.iaf.nl> As PUPS mailing list wrote ... > Has anyone successfully booted either the System III > (...Distributions/usdl/SysIII/) or Ultrix (...Distritutions/dec/Ultrix*) > tape images? I don't have a real PDP-11 any more, however both the Ultrix-11 V3.1 works just fine on my 11/83. I supplied the binary images to PUPS from the .5" reel tape ;-) So, yes it can work. My PDP is now running 2.11BSD btw. -- | / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD - |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nl http://www.freebsd.org Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA03366 for pups-liszt; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 00:56:31 +1000 (EST) From msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com Fri Oct 22 00:54:58 1999 From: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com (Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 99 09:54:58 -0500 Subject: Program to read unknown tapes Message-ID: <9910211454.AA25265@meson.jpsystems.com> Hi everyone, I have already posted this program to the PUPS list back in December 1998, but people are asking for it again, and also there are people on the Quasijarus list and not on the PUPS list who want it, so I'm posting it again, to both lists. This program can read a tape on a UNIX box without the user having to know anything about its format. This program automatically determines how many files are on the tape, what is the record size for each, and whether there are any oddities such as partial records. It saves each tape file into a separate disk file and produces a log of everything found on the tape. It's a simple C program and should compile and run on virtually any UNIX or UNIX-like system. The original version was written by one guy I met on another list once and then it was significantly enhanced by me. I include it below as a uuencoded 'compress -s'ed tarball. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Computer Operation Facility Special Agent 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY #4 International Free Computing Task Force DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 ARPA INET: msokolov at meson.jpsystems.com Enclosure: uuencoded cptape.tar.Z: begin 644 cptape.tar.Z M'Z'M6&U3&S<0YJOU*P0T at PW&^,`X&3NF0PBT:0G,0-(WFNF(.YU]PUER[^08 MFO#?N[LZ^>X<4MK.0#[D=B;#25KMR[-O[>[L[NZTM[UM8FOO+O'V0QKE:)H:D7"^-+Y..]U_X'L[ M#,X?PYY'IE6V"A%XG64!#W7"_8D1$\E6&3M]\<. at -A:1:FEV?G:0??N,'1P= M[W]W/JAMGC)FV7NU;^K`WF`UW^?VDV]J)XM]:3Z_?'WXL#KNJ7^O MLUVH_YVGR-;>[5;U_QAD"Y0G4 at 0I%YP6D>):29Z.M&GR22S\2`VY%/[('E.C MB)31P)_*B4B$D3R(TBM&)T(%/-;#(5XR(^2$IC(6)M**BTL]-:#,UTG`T^@O MF;9<`R%%,OTW>NR)$F,9\#7\;BFUUN2SD4PD4XI'*2DV,[T91,/(P.T_IU*9 M2,1<3<>7,N$Z)!82!'81.^JL@^^!]*.QB!DFAD$O9I$9\;;7:/$W(YG:6P!6 M(KD/N!FP(K(B_&F2@!XP$EPT.KEI\2-HJ&84I0PX4ZW(2D5PHV3!E9R1YB9! M/M/3..`*\8KCFTP\<,T%4H..3)/Y`0=@X(OP3J8J:[4\3/08C4DD0'LREV0/ M(:2HX%+2#9&"N#C6L[0WC\)F3.98%Y^G$\!"Q'N,$;CYAL,8@^#`3(1U!0!\ M'_F at S/(27$TN6\-6DVW!V99*QJ:-8(*0613'N9]W!99I00L!ACRM4GM*5N?)R)RFUM MI/U, at U1!%#(&PX(/I=$3P^N-/I/71B;0&$<0X'78%,EPOHFLL!6IH(E_P;)^ MKA_4G;_Z[=":T-UYUJEMK?-]'_VGJ:;Y&,99O=-H\K&XMGA=QMJ_LFVD!@2@ M8C>I:UP_[?^"S=/K_MC*&+?(* MD1J0JB,`&P\1HCJ M_?[6-DBH,2>&N4.=:LVOP`UOAG#IGUN>G"!QE0@^2IY_S/ M>9ODH^H)B-1)?67^_%E!?CQ)I)E"AGA]6D'D<7YCS(3B=`E#5KOE,H:W0%G! M8%#0@$<.T8;=@A,RR8]U*NL(7P-.:KA=M`D>29.I#4>/$R\91SSR.C)UCY:W M\&^20"#"^LH;<&,LDBL8M#`4H6QI*JX^:6]/?U@ZG`X=X^VW/]F<<;W^).XA$@SPQ5H'D?R!S7-B]#RA)F6;+O) M5X[^NY8[5*69W+R`0#1U192\$#W,&@@6O9E*-]K=;G=NN>4:\$WO_ at 1#29]- ML$)^>#;,ME2S?*GE-0T[A9K]-),6BG%Y4.@')2.S4/XL$@61[#E at 5P'3(F"46XRR@[4_,H+.#N$JH0YMJG,?X?=MRO^C;+YV)CFR=&EO.PC5^V4>3M MK23(N5"ZMUR(1,.6QUV!)^&EXO7ZME#S-N=*F=KU+9Z%]H1E-7UR^N;L&AC0)NS$8JNUWW8L\^)@A^0$'%O MI=%`D`]/CPC>%'Y-P.^3ND\K7T#36XO7>A:]LB/N&6*##0&Z at F]X=HAI;'KN M[K?NKC6-&G61/XN&M1:CG[GP\6/VID'CT&1HL1[9Y+(:WFG`"SY,4S'$VKL-WH+^HK^)0-;!>.$'M%\1QTS5;<*%[.*ZT\AHL" M,V?S/E1R=R&^&)(+Z_2[?H$C(*S!E")_DY_^7?N]75%%%%554444555111155 /5%%%7Q_]#6D82E<`*``` ` end From bdc at world.std.com Tue Oct 26 02:34:40 1999 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian D Chase) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 09:34:40 -0700 Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? Message-ID: Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or 7th Edition? -brian. --- Brian Chase | bdc at world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA27477 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 03:20:12 +1000 (EST) From pups at mrynet.com Mon Oct 25 20:19:54 1999 From: pups at mrynet.com (PUPS mailing list) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:19:54 +0000 Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? Message-ID: <199910251719.KAA77523@mrynet.com> Brian Chase asked: > Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the > BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or > 7th Edition? I see it on the System III and Version 7 systems. I don't see it in V6 distro however. Cheers, -skots -- Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor at mrynet.com MRY Systems staylor at mrynet.lv (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") ----- Labak miris neka sarkans ----- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA27681 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 04:03:31 +1000 (EST) From enf at pobox.com Tue Oct 26 04:15:15 1999 From: enf at pobox.com (Eric Fischer) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:15:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199910251815.NAA25814@216-80-13-97.d.enteract.com> Brian D. Chase writes, > Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the > BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or > 7th Edition? It appears in the First Edition manual, and according to A Quarter Century of Unix, it's even older than that. "There was also a version of dc, desk calculator, a very very early program. That was actually the first program that ran on the PDP-11. It ran standalone before there was an operating system." (p. 35) eric Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA27847 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 04:24:20 +1000 (EST) From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Tue Oct 26 04:23:48 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 12:23:48 -0600 (MDT) Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: from Brian D Chase at "Oct 25, 1999 09:34:40 am" Message-ID: <19991025182355Z433932-29789+188@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the > BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or > 7th Edition? > I think it was in 6th, but thats straining my memory a bit. -- Dr. Mark Green mark at cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Oct 26 10:07:44 1999 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:07:44 +1000 (EST) Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: <199910251815.NAA25814@216-80-13-97.d.enteract.com> from Eric Fischer at "Oct 25, 1999 1:15:15 pm" Message-ID: <199910260007.KAA16993@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Eric Fischer: > Brian D. Chase writes, > > > Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the > > BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or > > 7th Edition? > > It appears in the First Edition manual, and according to A Quarter > Century of Unix, it's even older than that. > eric There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive: -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29099 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:24:03 +1000 (EST) From bdc at world.std.com Tue Oct 26 10:23:42 1999 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian D Chase) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:23:42 -0700 Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: <199910260007.KAA16993@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Warren Toomey wrote: > There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive: > > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc Hmmm... did the permissions on files have the same meaning back in 1973 as they do now? Group and "other" writeable system binaries? Tsk tsk tsk. Well I suppose just because someone has written the Unix operating system, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a very good Unix sysadmin. -brian. --- Brian Chase | bdc at world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----- "Captain, we're experiencing a high rate of packet collisions!" -- K. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29144 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:27:16 +1000 (EST) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Oct 26 10:27:09 1999 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:27:09 +1000 (EST) Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: from Brian D Chase at "Oct 25, 1999 5:23:42 pm" Message-ID: <199910260027.KAA17113@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Brian D Chase: > On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Warren Toomey wrote: > > > There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive: > > > > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc > > Hmmm... did the permissions on files have the same meaning back in 1973 as > they do now? Group and "other" writeable system binaries? Tsk tsk tsk. > > Well I suppose just because someone has written the Unix operating system, > it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a very good Unix sysadmin. No, the perms have got stuffed up in conversion from 1st Ed permissions to the tar archive. 1st Edition had no groups, and only had perms 01 write for other 02 read for other 04 write for owner [ all octal values ] 10 read for owner 20 executable 40 set-UID Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29265 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:36:34 +1000 (EST) From dave at fgh.geac.com.au Tue Oct 26 10:33:59 1999 From: dave at fgh.geac.com.au (Dave Horsfall) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:33:59 +1000 (EST) Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Brian D Chase wrote: > > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc > > Hmmm... did the permissions on files have the same meaning back in 1973 as > they do now? Group and "other" writeable system binaries? Tsk tsk tsk. I don't believe the concept of group permissions existed then... > Well I suppose just because someone has written the Unix operating system, > it doesn't necessarily mean that they're a very good Unix sysadmin. On the other hand, people actually trusted each other, because you all worked with each other, and it was common for someone to write a utility and stick it on the system. Hint: /usr wasn't called that for no reason... -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave at geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia From grog at lemis.com Wed Oct 27 12:15:01 1999 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 22:15:01 -0400 Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: <199910260007.KAA16993@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from Warren Toomey on Tue, Oct 26, 1999 at 10:07:44AM +1000 References: <199910251815.NAA25814@216-80-13-97.d.enteract.com> <199910260007.KAA16993@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <19991026221501.47539@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> On Tuesday, 26 October 1999 at 10:07:44 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Eric Fischer: >> Brian D. Chase writes, >> >>> Just a quick question. Was the `dc' command introduced with one of the >>> BSD releases or did it exist in an earlier version of Unix like the 6th or >>> 7th Edition? >> >> It appears in the First Edition manual, and according to A Quarter >> Century of Unix, it's even older than that. >> eric > > There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive: > > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc Wouldn't that be the Third Edition with that timestamp? I won't comment again about the permissions. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Thu Oct 28 09:48:08 1999 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:48:08 +1000 (EST) Subject: When did the `dc' command first appear? In-Reply-To: <19991026221501.47539@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Oct 26, 1999 10:15: 1 pm" Message-ID: <199910272348.JAA26787@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by Greg Lehey: > > There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive: > > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc > > Wouldn't that be the Third Edition with that timestamp? I won't > comment again about the permissions. > Greg The binary is an 0405 a.out file. I'm told by Norman Wilson, who has paper copies of the 2nd & 3rd Edition manuals, that 0405 binaries didn't exist in 2nd & 3rd Edition. I also believe that the files in the s2.tar tarball sent in by Dennis are a whole year off, and so the date above should be Apr 14, 1972. That dates the file just before the release of 2nd Edition. I really need to sit down & outline my reasons for believing that the dates are a year out. I'll do so soon & email it here! Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA41918 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:49:29 +1000 (EST) From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca Thu Oct 28 09:48:50 1999 From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:48:50 -0400 Subject: dc and date numerology Message-ID: <199910272349.JAA41914@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Greg Lehey wondered about the date in > There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive: > > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc 1973 is indeed post-Second-Edition. But it's not the right date; just as the permission flags were different in the early years, so was the date representation. Here are some gleanings from old manuals that tell the story. The relatively recent ls or tar or whatnot that printed the line above presumably interpreted the date as if it were in modern form: seconds since 1 Jan 1970 UTC. So the raw number stored in the i-node was probably about 105000000 decimal (30 Apr 1973 in my time zone), or about 1200 days into the epoch. But the file system described in the First Edition manual takes the date as a count of clock ticks since 1 Jan 1971. The clock ticked at 60Hz, so the date is really about 1200/60 = 20 days into the epoch; if this file came from a 1e file system, it was written on 21 Jan 1971. The trouble with keeping a 60Hz clock in a 32-bit number is that it takes just a couple of years before it overflows. A band-aid had been stuck on by the time the Third Edition manual was printed: the base date changed to 1 Jan 1972. So maybe bin/dc was written on 21 Jan 1972 instead. There's no way to tell just from the bits in the i-node. The modern time format (1-second resolution) appeared in the Fourth Edition manual. It is probably not a coincidence that the file system format changed a lot at the same time; groups appeared, permission modes changed to approximately their current form, directory entries changed, and so on. The 60Hz scheme seems to have come from the PDP-7, on which it made more sense; the -7 has 36-bit words, so a 60Hz counter lasts 16 times longer. I bet the base date changed at least once between the original PDP-7 system and the PDP-11 as well, since 1 Jan 1971 seems too recent for the PDP-7 system. See http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/~norman/old-unix/old-fs.html for many more such grotty details, collected in an insomniac night with a stack of old manuals some months ago. Norman Wilson Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA42069 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:02:33 +1000 (EST) From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Thu Oct 28 10:02:25 1999 From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:02:25 +1000 (EST) Subject: dc and date numerology In-Reply-To: <199910272349.JAA41914@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman@nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Oct 27, 1999 7:48:50 pm" Message-ID: <199910280002.KAA26898@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In article by norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca: > Greg Lehey wondered about the date in > > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc > > 1973 is indeed post-Second-Edition. But it's not the right date; just as > the permission flags were different in the early years, so was the date > representation. Here are some gleanings from old manuals that tell the > story. [ much omitted ] Norman details the fact that early Unixes stored time in 60ths of a second, i.e the normal clock tick, and as such, a 32-bit integer overflows in around 2.5 years. However, I think Norman is not exactly right when he said that the tar archive was reinterpreting this 1/60 sec time in units of seconds. Dennis Ritchie, with help from Keith Bostic and a DECtape drive, managed to retrieve these files from an old DECtape. These old files were stored in tap(1) archive format. Dennis wrote a program to read in the tap(1) format archives and extract their contents while trying to maintain the _correct_ permissions and timestamps. Here is his email describing this: The tapes were written in either the 'tap' or 'tp' format, which are similar in that they have a directory of up to 192 entries at the start with names and other information including the size and tape address of the files. 'tp' was the later format, and was in use by November 1973, the date of the 4th edition manual. With `tap', the times associated with the files were recorded in pre-modern units: sixtieths of a second, from an origin that changed. The first three editions of the manual had BUGS sections noting that 32 bits can represent only about 2.5 years in this unit, and this implied continuing crises as the time overflowed. I believe that the change to use seconds for Unix time took place along with the change to the C version of the operating system, which occurred about the end of the summer of 1973, and also that the change from `tap' to `tp' took place at the same time. (This is consistent with the dates of the 3rd and 4th edition manuals). Thus the dates recorded with the `tp' tapes probably correspond reliably to the modification dates of the files at the time of saving them (of course, this gives only a upper bound on their creation, since they might have been copied or trivially touched just before saving them). Recovering the proper dates for the `tap' tapes is less reliable, because there was at least one change of epoch (from 1971 to 1972) during the period they could possibly have been produced. I believe that the 1972 epoch is most likely the correct one for the tapes here. In other words, Dennis had to guess the epoch when recovering these files. He got it right with the `nsys' kernel files, because there is enough other data lying around documenting the kernel rewrite from assembly to C, and the inclusion of pipes into the kernel. However, with the s2.tar archive, I think Dennis got the epoch one year out, i.e everything should be dated a year earlier. The most obvious is that there are so many 0405 magic a.out files in the archive, and apparently this a.out format disappeared in the 2nd Edition. Cheers all, Warren