From rms at gnu.org Mon Dec 1 11:46:03 2003 From: rms at gnu.org (Richard Stallman) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 20:46:03 -0500 Subject: [pups] Re: AI Lab Lispmachine source code In-Reply-To: <1070098024.3fc8666877175@www.paradise.net.nz> (message from Wesley Parish on Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:27:04 +1300 (NZDT)) References: <1069759627.3fc33c8bf250a@www.paradise.net.nz> <1069931747.3fc5dce357a72@www.paradise.net.nz> <1070098024.3fc8666877175@www.paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: In that case, do you have any objections to me siccing the TUHS(The Unix Heritage Soc.)http://www.tuhs.org/ /PUPS(PDP11 Unix Preservation Soc.)http://minnie.tuhs.org/PUPS/ people on to it? I am not sure what you mean by that, but whatever it is, I probably don't object. From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Tue Dec 2 13:01:25 2003 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 04:01:25 +0100 Subject: [pups] Mini UNIX (V6) and V7 tapes found Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E50F@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> All, I wrote: > Looks liek I ran into a bunchof really old and useful tapes > here. Two tapes come from Bell Labs, and seem to contain the > official Mini UNIX (Sixth Edition) and the official UNIX, > Seventh Edition. Hmm. Well, the V7 tape is saved... took a bunch of retries, but I managed to grab all of it. The V6 (Mini-UNIX) tape was OK, but some !$%(!@#$%@# must have run out of blank tapes, and decided to use this one.. it contains binary data. Major bummer, sorry :( Still working on the 2.8BSD tape, which needs more work. I also have to work on Christian Corti's tapes.. now that I have a working 800bpi SCSI drive, I actually *can* :) [thanks Walter!] Images will be sent off to the PUPS archive. Cheers, Fred From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz Tue Dec 2 17:51:01 2003 From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 20:51:01 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: [pups] Possible Trix source tape Was Fwd: Re: [TUHS] Re: AI LabLispmachine source code Message-ID: <1070351461.3fcc4465b4d1d@www.paradise.net.nz> First, an explanation - I'm interested in exhuming the Trix kernel - written at MIT -, which for a while was to have been the GNU kernel, according to RMS and the official FSF histories: http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU I've been in contact with RMS - pestering the poor hacker ;) - and he's told me he's got a tape that might have the Trix source on it, but he doesn't have a tape drive or enough time. I'm in NZ, which is a bit of a long way away from Mass., so I'm asking if anyone else in the vicinity is interested in seeing one of the earlier 7th Ed. clones to be written? I've got a number of reasons for wanting to read it - among them, the wish to compare with Minix 0.0 -, putting the ubiquity of Unix during the early 80s into perspective, and of course getting something to generalize any code I write for 32VI. So, if anyone's interested and in the vicinity, just get in touch with RMS and let him know you're interested and have the time. Thanks Wesley Parish P.S. It's interesting to consider what might've been if the GNU project hadn't got behind on the Hurd, and got up-to-speed with Trix. Jokes like "Who says you can't teach an old dog GNU TRIX?" spring immediately to mind ... ----- Forwarded message from Richard Stallman ----- Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:17:32 -0500 From: Richard Stallman Reply-To: "rms at gnu.org" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Re: AI Lab Lispmachine source code To: Wesley Parish In this context it means, getting someone in the appropriate community who's interested, around to check up on the tape. Ok. I have the tape here. ----- End forwarded message ----- "I me. Shape middled me. I would come out into hot!" I from the spicy that day was overcasked mockingly - it's a symbol of the other horizon. From chpap at ics.forth.gr Sat Dec 13 02:31:12 2003 From: chpap at ics.forth.gr (Christos Papachristou) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:31:12 +0200 Subject: [pups] pdp11/73 memory Message-ID: <001001c3c0cd$5b5ff5b0$11b95b8b@ics.forth.gr> I recently found a cabinet with a MicroVAX II (in 2 BA23 enclosures) and quite a lot storage devices on it. I plan to replace the MicroVAX II CPU module (M7606-AA) with a pdp11/73 CPU module (M8192) . I only have a 512k RAM module (M8067LA) for the pdp11/73 . The microVAX has two quad height memory modules , but I haven't checked yet whether they are 1, 2 ,4 or 8 megs each (ie M7607,M7608 or M7609) .Is it possible to keep some of the MicroVAX memory modules if they are below or equal to 4 megs? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 145 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Sat Dec 13 03:23:35 2003 From: dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:23:35 -0500 Subject: [pups] pdp11/73 memory In-Reply-To: <001001c3c0cd$5b5ff5b0$11b95b8b@ics.forth.gr> References: <001001c3c0cd$5b5ff5b0$11b95b8b@ics.forth.gr> Message-ID: <20031212172335.GB3476@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 06:31:12PM +0200, Christos Papachristou wrote: > > Is it possible to keep some > of the MicroVAX memory modules if they are below or equal to 4 megs? No. The uVAX memory requires special PMI stuff (carried over those ribbon cables) that the PDP-11 CPUs don't grok. At least, that's what I've always been told. -- David Evans dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Sat Dec 13 03:56:17 2003 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:56:17 +0100 Subject: [pups] pdp11/73 memory Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E5A8@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Hi all, > No. The uVAX memory requires special PMI stuff (carried over those > ribbon cables) that the PDP-11 CPUs don't grok. At least, that's > what I've always been told. Correct. --f From emu at ecubics.com Sat Dec 13 05:29:49 2003 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:29:49 -0700 Subject: [pups] pdp11/73 memory In-Reply-To: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E5A8@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E5A8@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Message-ID: <3FDA172D.2020204@ecubics.com> Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > Hi all, > > >> No. The uVAX memory requires special PMI stuff (carried over those >>ribbon cables) that the PDP-11 CPUs don't grok. At least, that's >>what I've always been told. > > Correct. Really ? I thought the uVaxI had the memory on the qbus ? From dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Sat Dec 13 06:14:29 2003 From: dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:14:29 -0500 Subject: [pups] pdp11/73 memory In-Reply-To: <3FDA172D.2020204@ecubics.com> References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E5A8@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> <3FDA172D.2020204@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <20031212201429.GA4051@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca> On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 12:29:49PM -0700, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > > >Hi all, > > > > > >> No. The uVAX memory requires special PMI stuff (carried over those > >>ribbon cables) that the PDP-11 CPUs don't grok. At least, that's > >>what I've always been told. > > > >Correct. > > Really ? I thought the uVaxI had the memory on the qbus ? > uVAX I does, I think, but IIRC the original post was about uVAX II memory. -- David Evans dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu Sat Dec 13 08:49:51 2003 From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:49:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [pups] pdp11/73 memory Message-ID: <200312122249.hBCMnpo23276@opihi.ucsd.edu> > From: "Christos Papachristou" > To: > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:31:12 +0200 > Subject: [pups] pdp11/73 memory > > I recently found a cabinet with a MicroVAX II (in 2 BA23 enclosures) and > quite a lot storage devices on it. I plan to replace the MicroVAX II CPU > module (M7606-AA) with a pdp11/73 CPU module (M8192) . I only have a > 512k RAM module (M8067LA) for the pdp11/73 . The microVAX has two quad > height memory modules , but I haven't checked yet whether they are 1, 2 > ,4 or 8 megs each (ie M7607,M7608 or M7609) .Is it possible to keep some > of the MicroVAX memory modules if they are below or equal to 4 megs? No. MicroVAX memory uses a different interconnect scheme. It is not in the Qbus address space. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenst at ucsd.edu From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Dec 13 11:56:25 2003 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 02:56:25 +0100 (CET) Subject: [pups] pdp11/73 memory In-Reply-To: <20031212172335.GB3476@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, David Evans wrote: > On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 06:31:12PM +0200, Christos Papachristou wrote: > > > > Is it possible to keep some > > of the MicroVAX memory modules if they are below or equal to 4 megs? > > No. The uVAX memory requires special PMI stuff (carried over those > ribbon cables) that the PDP-11 CPUs don't grok. At least, that's > what I've always been told. And that's correct. The 11/73 require Q-bus memory. The only VAX that used this is the MicroVAX I. If the 11/73 really is a disguised 11/83 CPU, you can use the 11/83 PMI memory, which don't work the same way as the VAX PMI. (PMI by the way stands for Private Memory Interconnect) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Dec 13 11:58:39 2003 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 02:58:39 +0100 (CET) Subject: [pups] pdp11/73 memory In-Reply-To: <3FDA172D.2020204@ecubics.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > >> No. The uVAX memory requires special PMI stuff (carried over those > >>ribbon cables) that the PDP-11 CPUs don't grok. At least, that's > >>what I've always been told. > > > > Correct. > > Really ? I thought the uVaxI had the memory on the qbus ? Correct. :-) And so the uVAX I don't have ribbon cables to memory. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From rms at gnu.org Mon Dec 1 11:46:03 2003 From: rms at gnu.org (Richard Stallman) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 20:46:03 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] Re: AI Lab Lispmachine source code In-Reply-To: <1070098024.3fc8666877175@www.paradise.net.nz> (message from Wesley Parish on Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:27:04 +1300 (NZDT)) References: <1069759627.3fc33c8bf250a@www.paradise.net.nz> <1069931747.3fc5dce357a72@www.paradise.net.nz> <1070098024.3fc8666877175@www.paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: In that case, do you have any objections to me siccing the TUHS(The Unix Heritage Soc.)http://www.tuhs.org/ /PUPS(PDP11 Unix Preservation Soc.)http://minnie.tuhs.org/PUPS/ people on to it? I am not sure what you mean by that, but whatever it is, I probably don't object. From masouds at stormbird.org Tue Dec 2 04:51:02 2003 From: masouds at stormbird.org (Masoud A. Sharbiani) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:51:02 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] 32I: spl*() and paging up In-Reply-To: <3FC96E2B.1030200@monmouth.com>; from patv@monmouth.com on Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 11:12:27PM -0500 References: <3FC96E2B.1030200@monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20031201135102.A1684@stormbird.org> Sorry if this has been asked before, is there any source repository/tarball for your work so far available? cheers, Masoud On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 11:12:27PM -0500, Pat Villani wrote: > A quick update. > > I have spl*() code as well as ia32 paging up in a small test kernel. > More testing remains to be done before integrating into 32I kernel. > Interrupt structure working well, as well as system call interface. > > Still need copyin(), copyout(), fubyte(), fuibyte(), fuword(), etc., as > well as save(), resume(), etc. > > Future progress will slow down a little. I have accepted an adjunct > teaching position, and will need to devote some otherwise free time to > preparing lessons. I still expect to have a preliminary running kernel > by New Years. > > Pat > > -- > I've always found paranoia to be a perfectly defensible position. -- Pat > Conroy > > > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs From Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de Tue Dec 2 09:34:26 2003 From: Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de (Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 00:34:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: [TUHS] UNIX v7 projects Message-ID: Hi all, I thought that you possibly could be interested in two projects, a small one that I did over a year ago and a more recent one, which is currently under active development. In order to become acquainted with the old UNIX sources as well as the behaviour of such a system running on old (but simulated) hardware I figured out how to feed Keith Bostic's original v7 tape images into Robert M. Supnik's PDP-11 simulator so that the original bootstrap procedure (described in "Setting Up Unix - Seventh Edition") could be carried out exactly as written. In addition to that I wrote a little program which traverses the root directory of the simulated disk and extracts its contents recursively (creating the same structure and files in the host's file system). I copied all the needed software and a HOWTO into a distribution package which can be found at http://telexx.mni.fh-giessen.de/PDP11-UNIX I did this little project as a "warm-up" for another and quite a bit bigger project: porting UNIX Seventh Edition to a modern RISC-like microprocessor (named ECO32). This processor and a few peripherals are simulated for now, but we intend to transform it into real hardware (we are thinking of an FPGA implementation). These of course are dreams of the future; what we have already is this: - an ECO32 simulator - an ECO32 back-end for the LCC compiler - an ECO32 assembler/linker/loader - a UNIX 7th Edition kernel ported to ECO32 We are working on a port of many of the commands; the standard library and the shell are ready and waiting to be integrated. The homepage of this project is http://telexx.mni.fh-giessen.de/ECO32 You are welcome to download the project in its current state; don't expect anything user friendly though ;-) If you have any questions regarding these two projects, feel free to ask. - Hellwig From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz Tue Dec 2 17:51:01 2003 From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 20:51:01 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Possible Trix source tape Was Fwd: Re: [TUHS] Re: AI Lab Lispmachine source code Message-ID: <1070351461.3fcc4465b4d1d@www.paradise.net.nz> First, an explanation - I'm interested in exhuming the Trix kernel - written at MIT -, which for a while was to have been the GNU kernel, according to RMS and the official FSF histories: http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU I've been in contact with RMS - pestering the poor hacker ;) - and he's told me he's got a tape that might have the Trix source on it, but he doesn't have a tape drive or enough time. I'm in NZ, which is a bit of a long way away from Mass., so I'm asking if anyone else in the vicinity is interested in seeing one of the earlier 7th Ed. clones to be written? I've got a number of reasons for wanting to read it - among them, the wish to compare with Minix 0.0 -, putting the ubiquity of Unix during the early 80s into perspective, and of course getting something to generalize any code I write for 32VI. So, if anyone's interested and in the vicinity, just get in touch with RMS and let him know you're interested and have the time. Thanks Wesley Parish P.S. It's interesting to consider what might've been if the GNU project hadn't got behind on the Hurd, and got up-to-speed with Trix. Jokes like "Who says you can't teach an old dog GNU TRIX?" spring immediately to mind ... ----- Forwarded message from Richard Stallman ----- Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:17:32 -0500 From: Richard Stallman Reply-To: "rms at gnu.org" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Re: AI Lab Lispmachine source code To: Wesley Parish In this context it means, getting someone in the appropriate community who's interested, around to check up on the tape. Ok. I have the tape here. ----- End forwarded message ----- "I me. Shape middled me. I would come out into hot!" I from the spicy that day was overcasked mockingly - it's a symbol of the other horizon. From patv at monmouth.com Tue Dec 2 22:53:30 2003 From: patv at monmouth.com (Pat Villani) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 07:53:30 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] 32I: spl*() and paging up In-Reply-To: <20031201135102.A1684@stormbird.org> References: <3FC96E2B.1030200@monmouth.com> <20031201135102.A1684@stormbird.org> Message-ID: <3FCC8B4A.3010208@monmouth.com> There is an archive on ftp://www.opensourcedepot.com/pub/32V, but it doesn't contain the latest code I'm working on. The reason is that I'm working on locore.S, and the drivers, using a small kernel I developed some time ago as part of the 32 bit FreeDOS/DOS-C effort. That kernel is easily adapted to any "personality" and is easy to test with. In my version of the 32 bit FreeDOS effort, this kernel was akin to the "bios" in real mode, but I digress. Eventually, files that contain VAX specific code, i.e., mfpr(), mtpr(), etc., will be modified and the bulk of the code will be processor independent, with processor specific code contained in separate directories. The key files from this test kernel, including drivers, will then be rolled back into the 32V source, creating the first 32I kernel. That will probably happen by the end of the month and will be my next code drop. I'll announce that here when its ready. Pat Masoud A. Sharbiani wrote: > Sorry if this has been asked before, is there any source repository/tarball for your work so far available? > cheers, > Masoud > > On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 11:12:27PM -0500, Pat Villani wrote: > >>A quick update. >> >>I have spl*() code as well as ia32 paging up in a small test kernel. >>More testing remains to be done before integrating into 32I kernel. >>Interrupt structure working well, as well as system call interface. >> >>Still need copyin(), copyout(), fubyte(), fuibyte(), fuword(), etc., as >>well as save(), resume(), etc. >> >>Future progress will slow down a little. I have accepted an adjunct >>teaching position, and will need to devote some otherwise free time to >>preparing lessons. I still expect to have a preliminary running kernel >>by New Years. >> >>Pat >> >>-- >>I've always found paranoia to be a perfectly defensible position. -- Pat >>Conroy >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>TUHS mailing list >>TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org >>http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs > > > -- People who get nostalgic about childhood were obviously never children. -- Bill Watterson, Calvin and Hobbes From aek at spies.com Wed Dec 3 07:39:10 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 13:39:10 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] Re: Possible Trix source tape Message-ID: <200312022139.hB2LdAM2026953@spies.com> I should have this on one of my backup tapes. If RMS is willing to send his tape to California, I have the equipment to read his. -- > It's interesting to consider what might've been if the GNU project > hadn't got behind on the Hurd, and got up-to-speed with Trix. -- If it wasn't tied up with Stanford licensing issues, the V Kernel would have been a more mature system than Trix. From memory, there wasn't that much to it at the time RMS was looking at it. From aek at spies.com Wed Dec 3 07:40:21 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 13:40:21 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] Re: Possible Trix source tape Message-ID: <200312022140.hB2LeLGd027106@spies.com> > From memory, there wasn't that much to it at the time RMS was looking at it. what I should have said was there wasn't much done on Trix when RMS was looking at it. From aek at spies.com Wed Dec 3 10:37:05 2003 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:37:05 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] trix src Message-ID: <200312030037.hB30b5V3028162@spies.com> Wesley, what I have of the sources is now up at www.bitsavers.org/MIT/trix You might try contacting Dave Goddeau or Steve Ward to see what else might still exist. Dave's MS thesis was on implementing an MP version of the Trix kernel. From kstailey at yahoo.com Mon Dec 15 05:11:20 2003 From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:11:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [TUHS] question about mkfs(8) and stdio Message-ID: <20031214191120.7737.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com> Did stdio buffering change over time? If you look at an old BSD mkfs for cylinder-group style file systems (not 7th Ed filesystems) you will see the super block backup loop does not fflush(stdio) between printf()s printf("super-block backups (for fsck -b#) at:"); for (cylno = 0; cylno < sblock.fs_ncg; cylno++) { initcg(cylno); if (cylno % 10 == 0) printf("\n"); printf(" %d,", fsbtodb(&sblock, cgsblock(&sblock, cylno))); } but I have memories that the superblocks were printed out one at a time as if fflush(stdout) was called between them rather than one line at a time with line-buffered stdio. At some point I thought "SysV must have broke this" since newfs would print out a complete row of superblock numbers at once with a big delay between the rows rather than each superblock number with a short delay between each number. But when I go searching the oldest BSD code has no fflush(stdout) the way modern FreeBSD does: for (cylno = 0; cylno < sblock.fs_ncg; cylno++) { initcg(cylno, utime); if (mfs) continue; j = snprintf(tmpbuf, sizeof(tmpbuf), " %ld%s", fsbtodb(&sblock, cgsblock(&sblock, cylno)), cylno < (sblock.fs_ncg-1) ? "," : "" ); if (i + j >= width) { printf("\n"); i = 0; } i += j; printf("%s", tmpbuf); fflush(stdout); } Did stdio buffering change over time so that line buffering became the default? Thanks, Ken __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree From johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au Mon Dec 15 10:48:28 2003 From: johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:48:28 +1100 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] question about mkfs(8) and stdio Message-ID: <200312150048.hBF0mS0Q029467@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> > you will see the super block backup loop does not fflush(stdio) between > printf()s Was there a 'setbuf(stdout, NULL)' at the beginning? This would force immediate output from any printf's (less efficient than a fflush) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Mon Dec 15 11:22:40 2003 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 03 17:22:40 PST Subject: [TUHS] question about mkfs(8) and stdio Message-ID: <0312150122.AA03565@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Kenneth Stailey wrote: > Did stdio buffering change over time? Line buffering was a Berkeley innovation. stdout became line-buffered by default (when it is a terminal) in 4.0BSD. 4.2BSD added setlinebuf(3) to allow people to make stdout or stderr line-buffered when they want to. 4.3BSD extended it to work on any stream, not just stdout or stderr. > If you look at an old BSD mkfs for cylinder-group style file systems (not 7th > Ed filesystems) Ahmm, you call that old? To me it's new... It's a (wonderful) 4.2BSD innovation. > but I have memories that the superblocks were printed out one at a time as if > fflush(stdout) was called between them rather than one line at a time with > line-buffered stdio. I use 4.3BSD-* systems every day and have been for the past several years, and you can take my word for it that on all 4.3BSD-* systems, including Quasijarus, plain 4.3, and Ultrix the alternate superblock list output from mkfs/newfs appears one line at a time on the tty. > At some point I thought "SysV must have broke this" I'm curious, where does SysV fit into this? It's the wonderful 4.2BSD filesystem a BSD-only thing that Missed'em-five people treated as a satanic manifestation? > since newfs would print out > a complete row of superblock numbers at once with a big delay between the rows That's exactly what it does. BTW mkfs = newfs. mkfs was/is the original UNIX filesystem creator. It was almost completely rewritten in 4.2BSD to create the new filesystems. At the same time the newfs program was written as a user- friendly front-end to mkfs (it merely exec'ed mkfs with a bunch of options). The situation remained in 4.3. In 4.3-Tahoe/Quasijarus mkfs.c and newfs.c are compiled and linked into one binary called newfs, CSRG was forced to do this in order to support disk labels. MS From new_zmkm at hotmail.com Wed Dec 24 02:51:13 2003 From: new_zmkm at hotmail.com (zmkm zmkm) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:51:13 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] RE: Fw: RATE RQST FROM RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT Message-ID: mamun tks for the prompt reply but we need the rate to malaysia not to jeddah and the rate must be break bulk because cntr will be very expensive. since each shipment is about 15 000 tons (fifteen thousand tons) it means we'll need about 700 cntrs !!! , and the contract will be about 150.000 tons divided into 10 shipments of 15 000 each . break bulk will be much cheaper , pls try to find some one else very urgently try shipco people maybe they can do it. pls mamun this is very important and top urgent , also I need reply overnight as client is losing patience. tks & rgs zouhair >From: mamun >To: new_zmkm at hotmail.com >Subject: Fw: RATE RQST FROM RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT >Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:55:09 +0300 > >Zouz > >Here is the reply fm brazil , as they can not offer service by Breakbulk. >pls comments. >Rgds/Mamun > >-----Original Message----- >From: Alexandre Jacomo >To: asad_moudayfer at awalnet.net.sa >Date: Monday, December 22, 2003 10:01 PM >Subject: RATE RQST FROM RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT > > >Dear Mr Asad Moudayfer > >Thank you for your below rate request. Pls be advised our best rate: > >From Rio de Janeiro Port to Jeddah Port >Cntr 20' std: US$ 2100 + $200 Baf >Cntr 40' std: US$ 3100 + $400 Baf >TT 45 days via Singapore >Charges in Rio de Janeiro Port >US$ 25 BL >US$ 50 per cntr 20' or 40' Capatazias - Brazilian THC > >Break Bulk from Rio de Janeiro Port to Port Klang/Malaysia >Unfortunately we can't offer this service, because we can't use our BL to >Break Bulk cargo. > >Rgds, > >Alexandre J�como > Commercial Dept. > UnicarrieR Ltd. - The Friendshipper > Tel.: 5511 3253 5334 Fax: 5511 3253 5277 > Email: alexandre at unicarrier.com.br > Web: www.unicarrier.com.br > Neutralidade - Seguran�a - �tica >----- Original Message ----- >From: Asad >To: Alexandre >Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 2:10 PM >Subject: Fw: RATE RQST FROM RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT > > > >Dear Alexandre > >Ref to our mail below earlier few minutes. > >Please note, we want rates by Break-bulk from fob RIO JANERIO upto PORT >KLANG/MALAYSIA >COMMODITY : RAW SUGAR IN BAGS TOTAL 150 THOUSAND TON / 15 THOUSAND TONS IN >EACH LOT. > >Please name the carrier & T/Time along with your best obtainable Bulk >rates at your earliest. > >Best Regards > >Mamun >Moudayfer & Bros co. >Riyadh - Ksa > >-----Original Message----- >From: Asad >To: Alexandre >Date: Monday, December 22, 2003 6:46 PM >Subject: RATE RQST FROM RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT > > >Dear Mr. Alexandre >Good Day > >Please provide us your best possible FOB ocean freight rate for 1X40fit & >1X20fit cntr from RIO JANERIO to Jeddah port. The commodity is sugar. > >We will appriceate about your soonest reply. > >Thanks & Best Regards > >Asad >Moudayfer & Bros Co >Riyadh >K.s.a. _________________________________________________________________ Working moms: Find helpful tips here on managing kids, home, work � and yourself. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/workingmom.armx From new_zmkm at hotmail.com Wed Dec 24 02:51:13 2003 From: new_zmkm at hotmail.com (zmkm zmkm) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:51:13 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] RE: Fw: RATE RQST FROM RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT Message-ID: mamun tks for the prompt reply but we need the rate to malaysia not to jeddah and the rate must be break bulk because cntr will be very expensive. since each shipment is about 15 000 tons (fifteen thousand tons) it means we'll need about 700 cntrs !!! , and the contract will be about 150.000 tons divided into 10 shipments of 15 000 each . break bulk will be much cheaper , pls try to find some one else very urgently try shipco people maybe they can do it. pls mamun this is very important and top urgent , also I need reply overnight as client is losing patience. tks & rgs zouhair >From: mamun >To: new_zmkm at hotmail.com >Subject: Fw: RATE RQST FROM RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT >Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:55:09 +0300 > >Zouz > >Here is the reply fm brazil , as they can not offer service by Breakbulk. >pls comments. >Rgds/Mamun > >-----Original Message----- >From: Alexandre Jacomo >To: asad_moudayfer at awalnet.net.sa >Date: Monday, December 22, 2003 10:01 PM >Subject: RATE RQST FROM RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT > > >Dear Mr Asad Moudayfer > >Thank you for your below rate request. Pls be advised our best rate: > >From Rio de Janeiro Port to Jeddah Port >Cntr 20' std: US$ 2100 + $200 Baf >Cntr 40' std: US$ 3100 + $400 Baf >TT 45 days via Singapore >Charges in Rio de Janeiro Port >US$ 25 BL >US$ 50 per cntr 20' or 40' Capatazias - Brazilian THC > >Break Bulk from Rio de Janeiro Port to Port Klang/Malaysia >Unfortunately we can't offer this service, because we can't use our BL to >Break Bulk cargo. > >Rgds, > >Alexandre J�como > Commercial Dept. > UnicarrieR Ltd. - The Friendshipper > Tel.: 5511 3253 5334 Fax: 5511 3253 5277 > Email: alexandre at unicarrier.com.br > Web: www.unicarrier.com.br > Neutralidade - Seguran�a - �tica >----- Original Message ----- >From: Asad >To: Alexandre >Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 2:10 PM >Subject: Fw: RATE RQST FROM RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT > > > >Dear Alexandre > >Ref to our mail below earlier few minutes. > >Please note, we want rates by Break-bulk from fob RIO JANERIO upto PORT >KLANG/MALAYSIA >COMMODITY : RAW SUGAR IN BAGS TOTAL 150 THOUSAND TON / 15 THOUSAND TONS IN >EACH LOT. > >Please name the carrier & T/Time along with your best obtainable Bulk >rates at your earliest. > >Best Regards > >Mamun >Moudayfer & Bros co. >Riyadh - Ksa > >-----Original Message----- >From: Asad >To: Alexandre >Date: Monday, December 22, 2003 6:46 PM >Subject: RATE RQST FROM RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT > > >Dear Mr. Alexandre >Good Day > >Please provide us your best possible FOB ocean freight rate for 1X40fit & >1X20fit cntr from RIO JANERIO to Jeddah port. The commodity is sugar. > >We will appriceate about your soonest reply. > >Thanks & Best Regards > >Asad >Moudayfer & Bros Co >Riyadh >K.s.a. _________________________________________________________________ Working moms: Find helpful tips here on managing kids, home, work � and yourself. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/workingmom.armx From wkt at tuhs.org Wed Dec 24 07:39:43 2003 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 07:39:43 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] RE: Fw: RATE RQST In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031223213943.GA36066@minnie.tuhs.org> On Tue, Dec 23, 2003 at 04:51:13PM +0000, zmkm zmkm wrote: > tks for the prompt reply but we need the rate to malaysia not to jeddah and Apologies all for that spam. I've removed the poster's e-mail address from the mailing list and it should not happen again. Warren From ljb at merit.edu Wed Dec 24 15:25:38 2003 From: ljb at merit.edu (Larry J. Blunk) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 00:25:38 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] Copyright notices in Edition 5, removed in Edition 6 Message-ID: <20031224052538.GE512@upstairs.Domain> Apologies if this has been answered before, but I noticed that there are AT&T copyright notices in the kernel sources for Unix Edition 5, but they were removed in Edition 6. You can still see the comment blocks for the notices in Edition 6, but the notices themselves have been removed. Does anyone have the history on this? I noticed that USL registered Editions 5, 6, 7 and 32V in 1992. I would assume that Editions 4 and earlier are free and clear because, prior to 1978, registration was a requirement for protection. Further, since USL waited longer than 5 years to register the copyrights for 5, 6, 7 and 32V, these may be free and clear as well. As I understand it, Editions 7 and 32V could have had copyright protection without registration since they were released after 1978. However, because they lacked copyright notices when released, they may very well be considered public domain. It was not until 1989 that the requirement for including copyright notices was dropped. From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Dec 24 15:31:27 2003 From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 22:31:27 -0700 (MST) Subject: [TUHS] Copyright notices in Edition 5, removed in Edition 6 In-Reply-To: <20031224052538.GE512@upstairs.Domain> References: <20031224052538.GE512@upstairs.Domain> Message-ID: <20031223.223127.122029141.imp@bsdimp.com> I think that one thing complicating the state of this code is that the Uruguay Treaty restored many copyrights to many copyright holders who had failed to put a notice in their works. However, derivitive works done while in the public domain would still belong to the folks that did them, if I read things correctly. Warner From ljb at merit.edu Wed Dec 24 16:05:36 2003 From: ljb at merit.edu (Larry J. Blunk) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 01:05:36 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] Copyright notices in Edition 5, removed in Edition 6 In-Reply-To: <20031223.223127.122029141.imp@bsdimp.com> (from imp@bsdimp.com on Wed, Dec 24, 2003 at 00:31:27 -0500) References: <20031224052538.GE512@upstairs.Domain> <20031223.223127.122029141.imp@bsdimp.com> Message-ID: <20031224060536.GA599@upstairs.Domain> On 12/24/03 00:31:27, M. Warner Losh wrote: > I think that one thing complicating the state of this code is that > the > Uruguay Treaty restored many copyrights to many copyright holders who > had failed to put a notice in their works. However, derivitive works > done while in the public domain would still belong to the folks that > did them, if I read things correctly. > > > I found a document addressing the Uruguay Treaty at http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ38b.pdf. It seems it only applies to certain foreign works (non-US) that were previously considered public domain in the US. In case you haven't guessed, I'm thinking about the various include files in the Linux kernel that SCO has claimed infringes on their copyrights. Many of the defines and comments seem to have originated in Unix Edition 7 and earlier. For example, errno.h - http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/Nsys/sys/nsys/user.h.html and http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V5/usr/source/s4/errlst.c.html signal.h - http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/Nsys/sys/nsys/param.h.html ioctl.h ioctls.h -http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V7/usr/sys/h/tty.h.html ctype.h - http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V7/usr/include/ctype.h.html stat.h - http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V7/usr/include/sys/stat.h.html From wkt at tuhs.org Wed Dec 24 16:08:46 2003 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:08:46 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] Copyright notices in Edition 5, removed in Edition 6 In-Reply-To: <20031224060536.GA599@upstairs.Domain> References: <20031224052538.GE512@upstairs.Domain> <20031223.223127.122029141.imp@bsdimp.com> <20031224060536.GA599@upstairs.Domain> Message-ID: <20031224060846.GA40195@minnie.tuhs.org> On Wed, Dec 24, 2003 at 01:05:36AM -0500, Larry J. Blunk wrote: > In case you haven't guessed, I'm thinking about the various include > files in the Linux kernel that SCO has claimed infringes on their > copyrights. Many of the defines and comments seem to have originated > in Unix Edition 7 and earlier. For example, > > errno.h - http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/Nsys/sys/nsys/user.h.html > and http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V5/usr/source/s4/errlst.c.html which are all under a BSD license provided by Caldera, see http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Caldera-license.pdf So technically, yes someone owns the copyright on these files, but they permit the content of the files to be placed in other programs or kernels. Warren From norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca Wed Dec 24 18:17:57 2003 From: norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (Norman Wilson) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 03:17:57 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] Copyright notices in Edition 5, removed in Edition 6 Message-ID: <20031224081831.D53231FAC@minnie.tuhs.org> Larry J. Blunk: Apologies if this has been answered before, but I noticed that there are AT&T copyright notices in the kernel sources for Unix Edition 5, but they were removed in Edition 6. [...] I noticed that USL registered Editions 5, 6, 7 and 32V in 1992. I would assume that Editions 4 and earlier are free and clear [...] As I understand it, Editions 7 and 32V could have had copyright protection without registration since they were released after 1978. However, because they lacked copyright notices when released, they may very well be considered public domain. It was not until 1989 that the requirement for including copyright notices was dropped. ======== Notwithstanding other comments about the history, for practical purposes none of this matters for Seventh Edition and 32V and anything earlier, because Caldera (as it then was) open-licensed them in January 2002; see http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Caldera-license.pdf. To be precise, that license covers 32-bit 32V UNIX 16 bit UNIX Versions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 with specific exclusion of System III and System V and successors. That is why source code for the Seventh Edition system (for example) is openly accessibly on the TUHS web server. Among those whose dog work produced first a hobbyist-specific per-person license, then the current BSD-like license, was Warren Toomey, who manages that web server and this mailing list. I don't think it will give him a swollen head (or a wooden leg) to thank him now and then, and I do so here. Long-time readers know all that, but those who have joined us recently might not. Norman Wilson Toronto ON From wkt at tuhs.org Wed Dec 24 19:09:43 2003 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 19:09:43 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] Copyright notices in Edition 5, removed in Edition 6 In-Reply-To: <20031224081831.D53231FAC@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20031224081831.D53231FAC@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <20031224090943.GA41441@minnie.tuhs.org> On Wed, Dec 24, 2003 at 03:17:57AM -0500, Norman Wilson wrote: >> As I understand it, Editions 7 and 32V could have had copyright >> protection without registration since they were released after >> 1978. However, because they lacked copyright notices when >> released, they may very well be considered public domain.... > > Notwithstanding other comments about the history, for practical purposes > none of this matters for Seventh Edition and 32V and anything earlier, > because Caldera (as it then was) open-licensed them in January 2002; > see http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Caldera-license.pdf. About 2 years ago, Dennis Ritchie sent me a long e-mail explaining why certain releases of UNIX, and 32V in particular, did not have any copyright notices. When I get back from holidays, I'll see if Dennis will let me forward the information here. > Among those whose work produced ... the current BSD-like license, > was Warren Toomey, who manages that web server and this mailing list. > I don't think it will give him a swollen head (or a wooden leg) to > thank him now and then, and I do so here. It does make me go Owwww sometimes, especially with this SCO thing. Have a good and safe Christmas, all. Warren From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Dec 25 01:41:57 2003 From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:41:57 -0700 (MST) Subject: [TUHS] Copyright notices in Edition 5, removed in Edition 6 In-Reply-To: <20031224060846.GA40195@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20031223.223127.122029141.imp@bsdimp.com> <20031224060536.GA599@upstairs.Domain> <20031224060846.GA40195@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <20031224.084157.39156674.imp@bsdimp.com> In message: <20031224060846.GA40195 at minnie.tuhs.org> Warren Toomey writes: : So technically, yes someone owns the copyright on these files, but : they permit the content of the files to be placed in other programs : or kernels. So long as the copyright notices, etc, are maintained... An important detail, but one which is worth remembering. In the early days of linux, there was much code borrowing from BSD w/o attribution (eg, the copyright notices were filed off). While most of these issues have been corrected, it is important to note that proper forms must be followed in order for the grant of license to be valid. Warner