From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jan 20 09:38:37 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 18:38:37 -0500 Subject: [pups] roll-your-own-unibus boards? Message-ID: <200401192338.i0JNcb121320@mwave.heeltoe.com> Hi, I asked this on the classic computer list and I thought I'd ask here also... Does anyone have any thoughts on how hard it would be to make a unibus board which is an IDE controller? I have 4-6 layer boards fabbed regularly and use modern CPLD's & VHDL on a regular basis, so the building part looks easy. I've never looked at unibus controlleqr schematic, but plan to. I'm assuming much of the old ttl can be sucked into something like a Xilinx coolrunner CPLD... I also assume it's reasonably straightforward TTL, and at (by today's standards) slow speed... true? Any hints, or gotcha's as far as fabrication or interface? Has anyone done this (in the modern day, that is :-) My plan would be to build a 4 layer board of suitable thickness with gold fingers, using an existing board for reference (any physical size specs I could read?) I'm well aware of the foolishness of this on one level, but there's a side of me that really enjoys this sort of thing... perhaps medication would help :-) -brad From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Jan 20 10:35:33 2004 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:35:33 +0100 (CET) Subject: [pups] roll-your-own-unibus boards? In-Reply-To: <200401192338.i0JNcb121320@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200401192338.i0JNcb121320@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jan 2004, Brad Parker wrote: > Hi, > > I asked this on the classic computer list and I thought I'd ask here > also... > > Does anyone have any thoughts on how hard it would be to make a unibus > board which is an IDE controller? Probably not hard at all, from a hardware point of view. The Unibus is well documented, and as you noted, slow. The only possible gotcha is that you better make sure you give enough power for the signals. A unibus can be several meters long. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From michael_davidson at pacbell.net Tue Jan 20 16:39:33 2004 From: michael_davidson at pacbell.net (Michael Davidson) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 22:39:33 -0800 Subject: [pups] roll-your-own-unibus boards? References: <200401192338.i0JNcb121320@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <003801c3df20$2ad8baa0$eb8ca140@ca.sco.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Brad Parker > > Does anyone have any thoughts on how hard it would be to make a unibus > board which is an IDE controller? It should be very simple. Several people have built IDE controllers for the QBUS. ftp://digital.dp.ua/DEC/ata/README.txt http://www.chd.dyndns.org/qbus_ide/ A unibus controller will be very similar except for the obvious differences in the bus interface. > I've never looked at unibus controlleqr schematic, but plan to. I'm > assuming much of the old ttl can be sucked into something like a Xilinx > coolrunner CPLD... Yes, but assuming that you are only implementing programmed i/o there will be so little logic involved that you might as well just use discrete TTL. In fact, DEC used to make single height modules which did address selection and interrupt control (M105 and M7821). If you could find a pair of those, your work would be almost completely done for you. > I also assume it's reasonably straightforward TTL, and at (by today's > standards) slow speed... true? Yes - very straightforward. > > Any hints, or gotcha's as far as fabrication or interface? Has anyone > done this (in the modern day, that is :-) Yes, make sure that you use appropriate bus transceivers, In particular, make sure that your bus drivers conform to the unibus spec, can sink sufficient current, and do not have rise times that faster than the spec allows. From iking at killthewabbit.org Tue Jan 20 17:03:35 2004 From: iking at killthewabbit.org (Ian King) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 23:03:35 -0800 Subject: [pups] roll-your-own-unibus boards? References: <200401192338.i0JNcb121320@mwave.heeltoe.com> <003801c3df20$2ad8baa0$eb8ca140@ca.sco.com> Message-ID: <007201c3df23$858c9c20$f10010ac@dawabbit> BTW, there's a company called Douglas Electronics (http://www.douglas.com) that sells DEC-style breadboards; I've purchased a couple of extenders from them, and they were of good quality and promptly shipped. -- Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Davidson" To: "Brad Parker" ; Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [pups] roll-your-own-unibus boards? ----- Original Message ----- From: Brad Parker > > Does anyone have any thoughts on how hard it would be to make a unibus > board which is an IDE controller? It should be very simple. Several people have built IDE controllers for the QBUS. ftp://digital.dp.ua/DEC/ata/README.txt http://www.chd.dyndns.org/qbus_ide/ A unibus controller will be very similar except for the obvious differences in the bus interface. > I've never looked at unibus controlleqr schematic, but plan to. I'm > assuming much of the old ttl can be sucked into something like a Xilinx > coolrunner CPLD... Yes, but assuming that you are only implementing programmed i/o there will be so little logic involved that you might as well just use discrete TTL. In fact, DEC used to make single height modules which did address selection and interrupt control (M105 and M7821). If you could find a pair of those, your work would be almost completely done for you. > I also assume it's reasonably straightforward TTL, and at (by today's > standards) slow speed... true? Yes - very straightforward. > > Any hints, or gotcha's as far as fabrication or interface? Has anyone > done this (in the modern day, that is :-) Yes, make sure that you use appropriate bus transceivers, In particular, make sure that your bus drivers conform to the unibus spec, can sink sufficient current, and do not have rise times that faster than the spec allows. _______________________________________________ PUPS mailing list PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jan 20 19:22:38 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:22:38 +0100 Subject: [pups] roll-your-own-unibus boards? In-Reply-To: <200401192338.i0JNcb121320@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200401192338.i0JNcb121320@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <20040120102238.09ba8fb9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 18:38:37 -0500 Brad Parker wrote: > Does anyone have any thoughts on how hard it would be to make a unibus > board which is an IDE controller? > > I have 4-6 layer boards fabbed regularly and use modern CPLD's & VHDL > on a regular basis, so the building part looks easy. I see two problems: 1. Bus transciever chips. 2. Software interface. Most likely you want MSCP, but implementing a UDA50 clone is not quite trivial. It is doable, but it would be quite some effort to write the firmware for the controler processor. Maybe you can also implement other emulations for RL02 or RK07 or ... That should be simpler then MSCP. -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Tue Jan 20 23:58:31 2004 From: dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 08:58:31 -0500 Subject: [pups] roll-your-own-unibus boards? In-Reply-To: <003801c3df20$2ad8baa0$eb8ca140@ca.sco.com> References: <200401192338.i0JNcb121320@mwave.heeltoe.com> <003801c3df20$2ad8baa0$eb8ca140@ca.sco.com> Message-ID: <20040120135831.GB10019@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca> On Mon, Jan 19, 2004 at 10:39:33PM -0800, Michael Davidson wrote: > Several people have built IDE controllers for the QBUS. > > ftp://digital.dp.ua/DEC/ata/README.txt > This one even claims to have a Unibus variant! > Yes, but assuming that you are only implementing programmed i/o > there will be so little logic involved that you might as well just use > discrete TTL. > I think that's what the above gizmo does. However, a DMA engine may not be difficult with the appropriate FPGA. -- David Evans dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Jan 22 02:50:55 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:50:55 -0500 Subject: [pups] roll-your-own-unibus boards? In-Reply-To: Message from Jochen Kunz <20040120102238.09ba8fb9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <200401211650.i0LGotq05854@mwave.heeltoe.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: ... >I see two problems: >1. Bus transciever chips. Yes, this is the big one. It turns out to be solvable, but not using IC's. National DS3862 would be good, but it just went out of production... I'm looking into making a "trapzoidal driver" (i.e. controlled edges) using a FET and RC on the gate. Someone else suggested it and it sounded like a good idea. Certainly easy to model/simulate first. -brad From kstailey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 2 09:30:06 2004 From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 15:30:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [TUHS] web site detailing Apple's mc68k UNIX, A/UX Message-ID: <20040101233006.83124.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.applefritter.com/ui/aux/ Site discusses what it was like to use A/UX, why Apple discontinued it, etc. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz Fri Jan 2 17:53:47 2004 From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 20:53:47 +1300 Subject: [TUHS] web site detailing Apple's mc68k UNIX, A/UX In-Reply-To: <20040101233006.83124.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040101233006.83124.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200401022053.47399.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> I would be interested to know if there is any chance of getting a hobbyist A/UX license out of Apple. It would be even better if one also got source code, but I also have a hankering for an Aeronautical Pigs Aerobatics Team in the RNZAF - pigs taken out of pig farms and taught to fly, of course -, and that is far more likely to happen ... ;) Wesley Parish On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 12:30, Kenneth Stailey wrote: > http://www.applefritter.com/ui/aux/ > > Site discusses what it was like to use A/UX, why Apple discontinued it, > etc. > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard > http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs -- Wesley Parish * * * Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish * * * Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?" You ask, "What is the most important thing?" Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata." I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people." From wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl Fri Jan 2 20:13:55 2004 From: wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 11:13:55 +0100 Subject: [TUHS] web site detailing Apple's mc68k UNIX, A/UX In-Reply-To: <200401022053.47399.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> References: <20040101233006.83124.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com> <200401022053.47399.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <20040102101355.GA63342@freebie.xs4all.nl> On Fri, Jan 02, 2004 at 08:53:47PM +1300, Wesley Parish wrote: My suggestion would be to ask Jordan Hubbard (jkh at FreeBSD.org), maybe he has any idea how feasible this would be Wilko > I would be interested to know if there is any chance of getting a hobbyist > A/UX license out of Apple. It would be even better if one also got source > code, but I also have a hankering for an Aeronautical Pigs Aerobatics Team in > the RNZAF - pigs taken out of pig farms and taught to fly, of course -, and > that is far more likely to happen ... ;) > > Wesley Parish > > On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 12:30, Kenneth Stailey wrote: > > http://www.applefritter.com/ui/aux/ > > > > Site discusses what it was like to use A/UX, why Apple discontinued it, > > etc. > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard > > http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree > > _______________________________________________ > > TUHS mailing list > > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org > > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs > > -- > Wesley Parish > * * * > Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish > * * * > Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?" > You ask, "What is the most important thing?" > Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata." > I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people." > > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs ---end of quoted text--- -- Wilko Bulte wkb at xs4all.nl From patv at monmouth.com Fri Jan 2 22:15:58 2004 From: patv at monmouth.com (Pat Villani) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 07:15:58 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] web site detailing Apple's mc68k UNIX, A/UX In-Reply-To: <20040102101355.GA63342@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <20040101233006.83124.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com> <200401022053.47399.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> <20040102101355.GA63342@freebie.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <3FF560FE.9050305@monmouth.com> I would agree with Wesley -- not feasible at all. From the FAQ quoted in the article, "A/UX is based on AT&T Unix System V.2.2 with numerous extensions from V.3, V.4 (such as streams) and BSD 4.2/4.3 (such as networking, the Fast File System, job control, lpr, NFS with Yellow Pages, SCCS and sendmail 5.64)." This is code in dispute in SCO v. IBM, a.k.a. SCO v. Linux and Open Source. According to SCO, it is System V.* code that was supposedly stolen and used in Linux. I exceptionally doubt you can get that code released as open source by SCO because that would kill the case. Additionally, I doubt you can get free binaries, as someone has to pay the royalties that Apple would owe SCO for each copy. Pat Wilko Bulte wrote: > On Fri, Jan 02, 2004 at 08:53:47PM +1300, Wesley Parish wrote: > > My suggestion would be to ask Jordan Hubbard (jkh at FreeBSD.org), > maybe he has any idea how feasible this would be > > Wilko > > >>I would be interested to know if there is any chance of getting a hobbyist >>A/UX license out of Apple. It would be even better if one also got source >>code, but I also have a hankering for an Aeronautical Pigs Aerobatics Team in >>the RNZAF - pigs taken out of pig farms and taught to fly, of course -, and >>that is far more likely to happen ... ;) >> >>Wesley Parish >> >>On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 12:30, Kenneth Stailey wrote: >> >>>http://www.applefritter.com/ui/aux/ >>> >>>Site discusses what it was like to use A/UX, why Apple discontinued it, >>>etc. >>> >>> >>>__________________________________ >>>Do you Yahoo!? >>>Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard >>>http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree >>>_______________________________________________ >>>TUHS mailing list >>>TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org >>>http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs >> >>-- >>Wesley Parish >>* * * >>Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish >>* * * >>Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?" >>You ask, "What is the most important thing?" >>Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata." >>I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people." >> >>_______________________________________________ >>TUHS mailing list >>TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org >>http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs > > ---end of quoted text--- > -- Tact is the ability to describe others as they see themselves. -- Abraham Lincoln From kstailey at yahoo.com Sat Jan 3 00:02:33 2004 From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 06:02:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [TUHS] earily Supnik paper on SIM the precursor to SIMH Message-ID: <20040102140233.34911.qmail@web60504.mail.yahoo.com> http://research.compaq.com/wrl/DECarchives/DTJ/DTJN02/DTJN02HM.HTM This web page also discusses restoring actual DEC hardware. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree From kstailey at yahoo.com Sat Jan 3 00:17:52 2004 From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 06:17:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [TUHS] is learn(1) free now? Message-ID: <20040102141752.75690.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, When 4.4BSD-lite was released one of the 4.4BSD encumbered things that was cut was the online courseware program, learn(1). When I purchased my copy of _The CSRG Archives_ CDROM set I was told in E-mail by McKusick that I did not need to sign any license agreements. I am assuming that this is due to Caldera proclaiming that V32 sources and binaries could be redistributed by the public legally. In the CDROM set is a fully encumbered 4.4BSD source tree which includes the learn(1) source code. I spent a few hours last night porting it to NetBSD and FreeBSD and tightening up a few bits like gets() vs. fgets(). I haven't finished and have yet to distributed the results. I also have yet to get the vi lesson data which the source code that I do have says came on a separate user-contributed tape. I got here because I have newbies in my life now and I need UNIX online courseware. The only thing I could find in the FreeBSD ports tree was something called vilearn. I'm wondering about distributing the results of my porting effort once it matures enough to be worth doing so. Thanks, Ken __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree From tuhs at rops.org Sat Jan 3 00:36:38 2004 From: tuhs at rops.org (Roger Willcocks) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 14:36:38 -0000 Subject: [TUHS] web site detailing Apple's mc68k UNIX, A/UX References: <20040101233006.83124.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001c01c3d13d$d4c24ea0$2301a8c0@burton> There's another take on the various favours of Apple Unix at http://www.cfcl.com/~eryk/weblog/archives/000183.html Depending on how you count that is six or seven unices spread over the last twenty years: 1) Unix for the Lisa 2) Unix for the YACC 3) A/UX 4) AiX 5) MkLinux 6) Rhapsody 7) Mac OS X -- Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Stailey" To: Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 11:30 PM Subject: [TUHS] web site detailing Apple's mc68k UNIX, A/UX > http://www.applefritter.com/ui/aux/ > > Site discusses what it was like to use A/UX, why Apple discontinued it, etc. > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard > http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs > From tuhs at rops.org Sat Jan 3 03:13:52 2004 From: tuhs at rops.org (Roger Willcocks) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 17:13:52 -0000 Subject: [TUHS] m68k SVR2 on Perq (was: web site detailing Apple's mc68k UNIX, A/UX) Message-ID: <006401c3d153$cb7cf280$2301a8c0@burton> Incidentally, the Unisoft m68k port of SVR2 at the core of A/UX was also ported to the Perq-5 in 1986/1987, to create the Crosfield Studio 9500. Perq had just folded, but a core group of ex-Perq employees worked with a team from the UK company Crosfield Electronics to take the machine (which at that time existed only as a wire-wrap prototype) through to production. I was a member of that team and I have fond memories of sitting in a basement office in Pittsburgh surrounded by kernel listings (with a very puzzled look on my face). Just a small footnote in Unix history... -- Roger From aek at spies.com Sat Jan 3 03:49:39 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 09:49:39 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] web site detailing Apple's mc68k UNIX, A/UX Message-ID: <200401021749.i02Hnduh031564@spies.com> > I would be interested to know if there is any chance of getting a hobbyist > A/UX license out of Apple. A/UX started out as a port of Unisoft SysV. Prior to version 2.0, there was no Finder interface at all. A real history of the product should be done at some point, as opposed to the half-baked opinions of someone who has only seen a very late version of the product. Since there were per-copy licensing fees to Unisoft, at least for the early versions, it seems unlikely that a hobbyist license for A/UX would be possible. From kstailey at yahoo.com Sat Jan 3 05:47:56 2004 From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 11:47:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [TUHS] is learn(1) free now? In-Reply-To: <0401021816.AA09263@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20040102194756.9245.qmail@web60510.mail.yahoo.com> --- Michael Sokolov wrote: > Kenneth Stailey wrote: > > > When I purchased my copy of _The CSRG Archives_ CDROM set I was > > told in E-mail by McKusick that I did not need> > to sign any > > license agreements. I am assuming that this is due to Caldera > > proclaiming that V32 sources and binaries could be redistributed > > by the public legally. > > Yes, this is correct, this is the same reason why Warren was able to > remove the password system from his UNIX Archive and make it > completely open. Warren, I see that there is a 4.4BSD-Alpha subdir in the TUHS archive. Do you want a final CSRG 4.4BSD tape to add there too? > > I also have yet to get the vi lesson data which the source code > > that I do have says came on a separate user-contributed tape. > > I just looked and 4.3BSD-Quasijarus has the vi lesson data as part of the > standard system. Thanks, I have to go through your archive for it now. > > I got here because I have newbies in my life now and I need UNIX > > online courseware. > > Hear hear. I sometimes get into this situation too, usually when > dating and getting faced with the need to teach a prospective female > how to use a real operating system, since the one woman who finally > makes it would absolutely have to use 4.3BSD-Quasijarus on my VAXen. Oh, I was talking about co-workers. There's been so many layoffs where I work that I was hoping to get some more help. > I looked into learn, but one thing it disappointed me with is that > it's woefully outdated. It starts by setting the tty erase and kill > chars to '#' and '@' respectively and teaching you how to edit the > command line on a hardcopy tty. Well, OK, some would see this as > good educational value, but the problem is, if you don't actually > *have* a hardcopy tty, and most of us don't, it doesn't work too > well. It prints out lessons longer than 24 lines and they scroll > off the top of the VT terminal. It was definitely written with the > assumption that one has a hardcopy tty with a long roll of > continuous paper, and it expects the student to grab the paper > coming out of the teletype and look at what's been printed, but it > just doesn't work on a VT terminal. Not to mention that in the end > the lessons give the student little practical learning that would > actually be useful when using UNIX on a CRT terminal. (For example, > it would be very practical to explain to the student the difference > between ^H and ^? and teach him/her how to deal with it.) It's so difficult being you. I was able to save myself the time by using the 4.4BSD version of learn(1) since it has already been modified for CRT terminals. You will have to re-invent the wheel because of your politics. > > I'm wondering about distributing the results of my porting effort > > once it matures enough to be worth doing so. > > > Well, as a I said 4.3BSD-Quasijarus contains learn and all other > "encumbered code" and it is freely available via anonymous FTP from > ifctfvax.Harhan.ORG, so... BTW for those who missed it I released > 4.3-QJ0b on 2003-12-07. Thanks again. I really do appreciate all the work you have done in this area. > MS __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Jan 3 04:16:50 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 04 10:16:50 PST Subject: [TUHS] is learn(1) free now? Message-ID: <0401021816.AA09263@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Kenneth Stailey wrote: > When I purchased my copy of _The > CSRG Archives_ CDROM set I was told in E-mail by McKusick that I did not need > to sign any license agreements. I am assuming that this is due to Caldera > proclaiming that V32 sources and binaries could be redistributed by the public > legally. Yes, this is correct, this is the same reason why Warren was able to remove the password system from his UNIX Archive and make it completely open. > In the CDROM set is a fully encumbered 4.4BSD source tree which > includes the learn(1) source code. Yup, I have it too (the whole CD-ROM set). learn(1) is far older than 4.4BSD though, and goes way back. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus has it too. > I also have yet to > get the vi lesson data which the source code that I do have says came on a > separate user-contributed tape. I just looked and 4.3BSD-Quasijarus has the vi lesson data as part of the standard system. > I got here because I have newbies in my life now and I need UNIX online > courseware. Hear hear. I sometimes get into this situation too, usually when dating and getting faced with the need to teach a prospective female how to use a real operating system, since the one woman who finally makes it would absolutely have to use 4.3BSD-Quasijarus on my VAXen. I looked into learn, but one thing it disappointed me with is that it's woefully outdated. It starts by setting the tty erase and kill chars to '#' and '@' respectively and teaching you how to edit the command line on a hardcopy tty. Well, OK, some would see this as good educational value, but the problem is, if you don't actually *have* a hardcopy tty, and most of us don't, it doesn't work too well. It prints out lessons longer than 24 lines and they scroll off the top of the VT terminal. It was definitely written with the assumption that one has a hardcopy tty with a long roll of continuous paper, and it expects the student to grab the paper coming out of the teletype and look at what's been printed, but it just doesn't work on a VT terminal. Not to mention that in the end the lessons give the student little practical learning that would actually be useful when using UNIX on a CRT terminal. (For example, it would be very practical to explain to the student the difference between ^H and ^? and teach him/her how to deal with it.) > I'm wondering about distributing the results of my porting effort once it > matures enough to be worth doing so. Well, as a I said 4.3BSD-Quasijarus contains learn and all other "encumbered code" and it is freely available via anonymous FTP from ifctfvax.Harhan.ORG, so... BTW for those who missed it I released 4.3-QJ0b on 2003-12-07. MS From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Jan 3 06:40:12 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 04 12:40:12 PST Subject: [TUHS] is learn(1) free now? Message-ID: <0401022040.AA09379@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Kenneth Stailey wrote: > Warren, I see that there is a 4.4BSD-Alpha subdir in the TUHS archive. Do you > want a final CSRG 4.4BSD tape to add there too? I would definitely want an image of the 4.4BSD tape too! But I do mean *tape*, not what's on Kirk's CD-ROM. I'm talking about a record-for-record image of the Official Release Master tape. > Thanks, I have to go through your archive for it now. Actually I just took a closer look and it has been in the distributed /usr/lib/learn since 4.3BSD, it was just never added to /usr/src/usr.lib/learn for some reason (not even in Quasijarus, I probably didn't notice it). So you don't have to go through the pain of downloading a dist from Harhan to pull it out of there, you can just take it from your CD-ROM set. > It's so difficult being you. :-) > I was able to save myself the time by > using the 4.4BSD version of learn(1) since it has already been > modified for CRT terminals. You will have to re-invent the wheel > because of your politics. Well I'll take a look at what they did to learn in 4.4BSD and see if any of it is acceptable for Quasijarus. Hopefully I won't have to reinvent the wheel. I believe in adding new features without breaking or disturbing historical stuff. It feels so great knowing that my current modern OS (last release 2003-12-07 counts as current and modern to me) still has nearly all original V7 UNIX code almost completely untouched. It's what gives me the right to call it UNIX. As far as learn goes I think I would need to add new lessons for UNIX on a CRT or some options or somesuch, but I do NOT want to remove the facility for teaching UNIX on a hardcopy tty. That's such a gem, it should be kept! MS From norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca Sat Jan 3 13:37:06 2004 From: norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (Norman Wilson) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 22:37:06 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] is learn(1) free now? Message-ID: <20040103033824.5CD121E85@minnie.tuhs.org> Michael Sokolov: It feels so great knowing that my current modern OS (last release 2003-12-07 counts as current and modern to me) still has nearly all original V7 UNIX code almost completely untouched. It's what gives me the right to call it UNIX. ======= You mean you've restored the original version of cat that had only one option, and the version of ls that had fewer than a dozen and didn't care how wide the screen was; that filenames are only 14 characters long; that fsck has been abolished in favour of icheck and ncheck and dcheck; and that file system blocks have returned to their original V7 size of 512 bytes? My hat's off to you if so. On the other hand, I have to question either your stability or that of your system if you have reinstated the original V7 code implementing mpx(2). Norman Wilson Toronto ON (who actually used the old multiplexor once, but had to fix it first!) From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Jan 3 14:53:21 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 04 20:53:21 PST Subject: [TUHS] is learn(1) free now? Message-ID: <0401030453.AA09644@ivan.Harhan.ORG> norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (Norman Wilson) wrote: > You mean you've restored the original version of cat that had only one option, > [...] Notice my use of the words "nearly" and "almost" in the part you responded to. Seriously though, you gotta agree that until 4.3BSD inclusive, Berkeley was basically adding to and extending V7. Sure they added a *lot* and extended many of the existing facilities, but with very few exceptions, it was all additive, virtually no V7 facility (except the mpx you mentioned) was removed. Yes, they added fsck, but icheck is still there! (No one uses it of course, but knowing that nobody removed it gives a warm fuzzy feeling.) The same goes for almost everything else. Here is the acid test: time-teleport a V7 user from 1979 to a VAX running 4.3BSD, set PATH=/bin:/usr/bin (no /usr/ucb), do stty old (old tty driver) and stty ek (erase # kill @) and see if he feels at home or not. Of course I never use my systems in this way, I make extensive use of Berkeley UNIX facilities, but I like it much better to use a system that is additive rather than substitutive with respect to Original UNIX. MS From sethm at loomcom.com Sun Jan 4 05:27:48 2004 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 11:27:48 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] is learn(1) free now? In-Reply-To: <0401030453.AA09644@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0401030453.AA09644@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On Jan 2, 2004, at 8:53 PM, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Here is the acid test: time-teleport a V7 user from 1979 to a VAX > running > 4.3BSD, set PATH=/bin:/usr/bin (no /usr/ucb), do stty old (old tty > driver) and > stty ek (erase # kill @) and see if he feels at home or not. I suspect they would be horrified that more progress hadn't been made in computing environments in the last 25 years :) In 1979, I was pretty excited when I thought about what computers could be like in the early 2000s. We all love to preserve history, but there's something to be said for moving on and creating something new as well. -Seth From kstailey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 9 02:43:32 2004 From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 08:43:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [TUHS] MicroSoft Money Central Web Site on SCOX Message-ID: <20040108164332.17263.qmail@web60509.mail.yahoo.com> This one was too good to not pass around. http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/srs/srsmain.asp?Symbol=SCOX The sites says (and I quote) << The SCO Group, Inc., a small-cap growth company in the technology sector, is expected to significantly underperform the market over the next six months with very high risk. >> __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus From kwall at kurtwerks.com Fri Jan 9 07:27:35 2004 From: kwall at kurtwerks.com (Kurt Wall) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:27:35 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] MicroSoft Money Central Web Site on SCOX In-Reply-To: <20040108164332.17263.qmail@web60509.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040108164332.17263.qmail@web60509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040108212735.GA6604@kurtwerks.com> In a 0.6K blaze of typing glory, Kenneth Stailey wrote: > This one was too good to not pass around. > > http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/srs/srsmain.asp?Symbol=SCOX > > The sites says (and I quote) > ><< The SCO Group, Inc., a small-cap growth company in the technology sector, is >expected to significantly underperform the market over the next six months with >very high risk. >> "significantly underperform"? What a very polite circumlocution for "crater." Kurt -- "The first rule of magic is simple. Don't waste your time waving your hands and hoping when a rock or a club will do." -- McCloctnik the Lucid From asbesto at freaknet.org Mon Jan 12 02:01:08 2004 From: asbesto at freaknet.org (asbesto) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:01:08 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] medialab.dyndns.org blocked and no more exist, use medialab.freaknet.org instead! Message-ID: <20040111160108.GA3360@freaknet.org> medialab.dyndns.org blocked - medialab.freaknet.org is the solution! dyndns.org blocked our domain "medialab.dyndns.org" for a not well specified "account violation" problem. we're trying to solve that, but the real problems is the large amount of google indexes pointing to medialab.dyndns.org this free domain was born when we was not able to register a "real" domain. now we have freaknet.org and medialab.freaknet.org, but there's nothing to do for all the old links resting into the net :) this address is used from many users around the world, to telnet, ssh, rlogin and surf our free computer network! so, here i announce that medialab.dyndns.org now is not working anymore, and people can use medialab.freaknet.org instead. Hope this message will be soon indexed by google :))) sorry for this - more details and all the story background can be read at our main site, http://www.freaknet.org in the news section. tnx all and god bless all PDP/11 in the world. -- [asbesto : freaknet medialab : radio#cybernet : GPG key on keyservers] [ MAIL ATTACH, SPAM, HTML, WORD, and msgs larger than 95K > /dev/null ] [http://www.freaknet.org/asbesto IW9HGS http://kyuzz.org/radiocybernet] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jrvalverde at cnb.uam.es Mon Jan 12 20:18:44 2004 From: jrvalverde at cnb.uam.es (José R. Valverde) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:18:44 +0100 Subject: [TUHS] is learn(1) free now? Message-ID: <20040112111844.40aa04fd.jrvalverde@cnb.uam.es> Learn is free. At least it's author, some unherad of guy named Brian Kernighan is making it publicly available on the Net through his web page :-) http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/bwk/ It's been there for a long while. I had a similar problem with novice users some years ago, and remembered good old faithful 'learn' from Ultrix. I also remembered having compiled it at some point in OSF/1. So I went to the net and started a search, and lo! there it was at Brian's page. I ported it to IRIX, which is where I had said novice users, and being at it, to Linux as well. I must have the ported code somewhere but I'm on Holidays now. A look at AIX and Tru64 revealed it is still there in new versions of these, which proved great for me: DWK code did not come with all the lessons I had used before, and I could just copy the lessons from these systems over and use them with the port. Therefore, yes, it is free, it is available on the Net, I have already ported it to modern systems, and the lessons are still distributed with some commercial UNIX variants should you need them. j -- These opinions are mine and only mine. Hey man, I saw them first! José R. Valverde De nada sirve la Inteligencia Artificial cuando falta la Natural From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz Mon Jan 26 19:46:20 2004 From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 22:46:20 +1300 Subject: [TUHS] Sys III - Yet Again Message-ID: <200401262246.20993.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> I just thought of a reason _why_ Caldera was unable to clarify the status of System III - if you look at the documents on Groklaw.net, http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=legal-docs one of them's a document between Novell and SCO Original, where the System V releases are enumerated. Another is a similar document which mentions the Ancient Unix and their manuals as being part of the deal. Neither document that I can recall, mentions anything about System III - and apparently Warren Toomey had to supply them with that, so it would appear that System III is - quite literally - unclaimed by anyone, apart from its copyright notices, and thus - since neither The SCO Group nor Novell has laid claim to it in their copyright battle - it could well be considered Public Domain. Just a thought, and don't take my word for it. -- Wesley Parish * * * Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish * * * Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?" You ask, "What is the most important thing?" Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata." I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people." From Pat.Villani at hp.com Tue Jan 27 00:54:58 2004 From: Pat.Villani at hp.com (Pat Villani) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 09:54:58 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] Sys III - Yet Again In-Reply-To: <200401262246.20993.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> References: <200401262246.20993.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <40152A42.8080107@hp.com> It's a bit more complicated than that, so no one should rush out and claim that System III is public domain. Omission from this set of documentation does not mean that no one owns it. Instead, it means that the original owner still owns it. Whether that is AT&T, Unix Systems Labs, now defunct, or the lawful owners of its assets, Lucent Technologies, Novell or SCO is uncertain, but there is an owner. In my opinion, the original asset purchase agreement and follow on amendments were poorly written and do not address the actual ownership of intellectual property. It is my opinion that they have confused license to use and distribute with ownership, i.e., copyright. They would have done well to look at book contracts and author agreements for a model. Of course, that is my opinion, not that of HP or anyone associated with HP. In addition, I am not a lawyer and anyone affected by these matters should seek legal counsel prior to taking any action. Pat Wesley Parish wrote: > I just thought of a reason _why_ Caldera was unable to clarify the status of > System III - if you look at the documents on Groklaw.net, > http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=legal-docs > > one of them's a document between Novell and SCO Original, where the System V > releases are enumerated. Another is a similar document which mentions the > Ancient Unix and their manuals as being part of the deal. > > Neither document that I can recall, mentions anything about System III - and > apparently Warren Toomey had to supply them with that, so it would appear > that System III is - quite literally - unclaimed by anyone, apart from its > copyright notices, and thus - since neither The SCO Group nor Novell has laid > claim to it in their copyright battle - it could well be considered Public > Domain. > > Just a thought, and don't take my word for it. -- Things could always be worse; for instance, you could be ugly and work in the Post Office. -- Adrienne E. Gusoff