From wkt at tuhs.org Tue Apr 1 14:22:15 2008 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 14:22:15 +1000 Subject: [pups] init on V6 Unix In-Reply-To: <6B7CD94C177AB54B9E7D054936D5DC83019FE7BE@zmy16exm72.ds.mot.com> References: <6B7CD94C177AB54B9E7D054936D5DC83019FE7BE@zmy16exm72.ds.mot.com> Message-ID: <20080401042215.GB26157@minnie.tuhs.org> On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 09:44:59AM +0800, Hao Qingfeng-TKNV68 wrote: > Hello, Warren, Excuse me for my abruptness. I am QingFeng Hao from > China and got your mail from the website through google searching, :-). > I know you're expect on the operating system. Now I am researching the > Unix V6's source code , but I met some questions, if you could spend > some time to give some aim, I 'll apprecite it much. > Question1: After startup, process 1 runs in the user mode and execute > the file /etc/init actually, right? So what's the /etc/init's content? > When was it written to the disk(combined with Unix)? > Question2: Do you have any documents about the peripherals such as > KL-11, PC-11? I just got a pdp11/40 and a simple hardware manual from > the website. But they are not enough. > Thanks a lot. > QingFeng Hao > Moto-SME Hi QingFeng, I think you should join the PUPS mailing list ( see http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups ), as the people on the list should be able to answer your questions. Q1: The source code for V6 init.c is here: http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V6/usr/source/s1/init.c.html Q2: I would browse through this area of bitsavers.org: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/ Hope this helps, and if you have other questions please e-mail them to the PUPS mailing list, so that we can all help you out. Cheers, Warren From wkt at tuhs.org Tue Apr 1 14:39:51 2008 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 14:39:51 +1000 Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD patches? Message-ID: <20080401043951.GE26449@minnie.tuhs.org> ----- Forwarded message from Jonathan Engdahl ----- Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:50:29 -0500 From: Jonathan Engdahl To: wkt at tuhs.org, sms at 2bsd.com Subject: 2.11BSD I don't know what got into me. I decided to fire up a PDP-11. I have not touched one of these for about 5 years. I've mostly been messing with embedded Linux stuff. The 2.11BSD patch archive has gone offline. Do you know if there is a mirror of this somewhere? http://moe.2bsd.com/ Jonathan Engdahl ----- End forwarded message ----- From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Apr 2 11:12:14 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 21:12:14 -0400 Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD patches? In-Reply-To: <20080401043951.GE26449@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20080401043951.GE26449@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <24809.1207098734@mini> Warren Toomey wrote: > >The 2.11BSD patch archive has gone offline. Do you know if there is a >mirror of this somewhere? > >http://moe.2bsd.com/ I wondered the same thing. If anyone has an archive I'd be happy to host it on a reasonably fast colo server in Atlanta. (doesn't everyone have a pdp-11 collection? :-) -brad From sms at 2BSD.COM Wed Apr 2 12:32:27 2008 From: sms at 2BSD.COM (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 19:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD patches? In-Reply-To: <24809.1207098734@mini> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Apr 2008, Brad Parker wrote: > Warren Toomey wrote: > > > >The 2.11BSD patch archive has gone offline. Do you know if there is a > >mirror of this somewhere? > >http://moe.2bsd.com/ It's been up 24x7 (w/ the exception of poweroutages) since about 1998 Now if you're in one of the 11 or 12000 netblocks I've banned for scanning/hacking/spamming well, sigh, that's too bad :( > I wondered the same thing. If anyone has an archive I'd be happy to > host it on a reasonably fast colo server in Atlanta. Try ftp.wx.gd-ais.com > (doesn't everyone have a pdp-11 collection? :-) No, i've one that hasn't been powered up in 5 years and likely has dried out all the capacitors anyhow. All things come to an end and my interest in "slow" waned a long time ago Steven Schultz From wkt at tuhs.org Wed Apr 2 12:54:41 2008 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 12:54:41 +1000 Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD patches? In-Reply-To: References: <24809.1207098734@mini> Message-ID: <20080402025441.GA80242@minnie.tuhs.org> On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 07:32:27PM -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Now if you're in one of the 11 or 12000 netblocks I've banned for > scanning/hacking/spamming well, sigh, that's too bad :( > I must be: ftp ftp.wx.gd-ais.com Connected to raid.wx.gd-ais.com. 421 Service not available, remote server has closed connection. :-( Warren From sms at 2BSD.COM Wed Apr 2 13:18:11 2008 From: sms at 2BSD.COM (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 20:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD patches? In-Reply-To: <20080402025441.GA80242@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Apr 2008, Warren Toomey wrote: > On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 07:32:27PM -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > > Now if you're in one of the 11 or 12000 netblocks I've banned for > > scanning/hacking/spamming well, sigh, that's too bad :( > > > I must be: > > ftp ftp.wx.gd-ais.com > Connected to raid.wx.gd-ais.com. > 421 Service not available, remote server has closed connection. Is this you: Apr 1 19:53:35 raid ftpd at 199.107.241.17[9514]: refused connect from 58.174.148.191 Apr 1 19:53:59 raid ftpd at 199.107.241.17[9515]: refused connect from 58.174.148.191 raid.2-> nslookup -q=ptr 58.174.148.191 Server: raid.WX.GD-AIS.COM Address: 192.168.19.17 *** raid.WX.GD-AIS.COM can't find 191.148.174.58.in-addr.arpa.: Non-existent host/domain No reverse DNS. So that block isn't in the packet filters since you're getting a connection refused. None of the systems I run will provice service to systems without reverse DNS. Been that way for years. 'course I could while list that specific address if it's going to remain "yours". Steven From helbig at lehre.ba-stuttgart.de Mon Apr 7 00:34:02 2008 From: helbig at lehre.ba-stuttgart.de (Wolfgang Helbig) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 16:34:02 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [pups] init on V6 Unix Message-ID: <200804061450.m36EoKXt000596@bsd.korb> Hi, Quing Feng, at http://www.ba-stuttgart.de/~helbig/os/v6/pdp11 you'll find a detailed description of the pdp-11 and its peripherals as needed for understanding design and implementation of V6. and at http://www.ba-stuttgart.de/~helbig/os/script/chapt2.4 you'll find a description of the init process. have fun, Wolfgang Helbig Warren Thomas wrote: > >On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 09:44:59AM +0800, Hao Qingfeng-TKNV68 wrote: >> Hello, Warren, Excuse me for my abruptness. I am QingFeng Hao from >> China and got your mail from the website through google searching, :-). >> I know you're expect on the operating system. Now I am researching the >> Unix V6's source code , but I met some questions, if you could spend >> some time to give some aim, I 'll apprecite it much. >> Question1: After startup, process 1 runs in the user mode and execute >> the file /etc/init actually, right? So what's the /etc/init's content? >> When was it written to the disk(combined with Unix)? >> Question2: Do you have any documents about the peripherals such as >> KL-11, PC-11? I just got a pdp11/40 and a simple hardware manual from >> the website. But they are not enough. >> Thanks a lot. >> QingFeng Hao >> Moto-SME > >Hi QingFeng, I think you should join the PUPS mailing list ( see >http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups ), as the people on >the list should be able to answer your questions. > >Q1: The source code for V6 init.c is here: > http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V6/usr/source/s1/init.c.html > >Q2: I would browse through this area of bitsavers.org: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/ > >Hope this helps, and if you have other questions please e-mail them >to the PUPS mailing list, so that we can all help you out. > >Cheers, > Warren >_______________________________________________ >PUPS mailing list >PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org >https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups -- "Dijkstra is right, but you don't say such things!" (A less courageous programmer) ------------- End Forwarded Message ------------- -- "Dijkstra is right, but you don't say such things!" (A less courageous programmer) From robinb at ruffnready.co.uk Wed Apr 9 06:09:00 2008 From: robinb at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 21:09:00 +0100 Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD patches? In-Reply-To: <20080401043951.GE26449@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20080401043951.GE26449@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <000001c899b4$672c2b10$0200a8c0@robinslaptop> Warren, I've downloaded the whole thing from Steve's site. Do you want me to send this to you so that you can make it publicly available. I've checked this with Steve and he's ok with it. Robin -----Original Message----- From: pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org [mailto:pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On Behalf Of Warren Toomey Sent: 01 April 2008 05:40 To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD patches? ----- Forwarded message from Jonathan Engdahl ----- Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:50:29 -0500 From: Jonathan Engdahl To: wkt at tuhs.org, sms at 2bsd.com Subject: 2.11BSD I don't know what got into me. I decided to fire up a PDP-11. I have not touched one of these for about 5 years. I've mostly been messing with embedded Linux stuff. The 2.11BSD patch archive has gone offline. Do you know if there is a mirror of this somewhere? http://moe.2bsd.com/ Jonathan Engdahl ----- End forwarded message ----- _______________________________________________ PUPS mailing list PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups From robinb at ruffnready.co.uk Wed Apr 9 06:44:35 2008 From: robinb at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 21:44:35 +0100 Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD patches? In-Reply-To: <4ab61a80804081338q1f515badx249198866b67a839@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080401043951.GE26449@minnie.tuhs.org> <000001c899b4$672c2b10$0200a8c0@robinslaptop> <4ab61a80804081338q1f515badx249198866b67a839@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000201c899b9$5f37c8b0$0200a8c0@robinslaptop> Hi Dave, The archive that I've got has got a couple more files which look like the original update instructions and so on. Would be of use if I ftp'd you the compressed tar I've got of the whole lot? It would be a good idea I guess if it was put up in a couple of separate places. Robin -----Original Message----- From: David Cornejo [mailto:dave at dogwood.com] Sent: 08 April 2008 21:38 To: robinb at ruffnready.co.uk Cc: Warren Toomey; PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD patches? it's also been mirrored here: ftp://white.dogwood.com/pub/2.11BSD (O'ahu Hawai'i) On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Robin Birch wrote: > Warren, > I've downloaded the whole thing from Steve's site. Do you want me to send > this to you so that you can make it publicly available. I've checked this > with Steve and he's ok with it. > > Robin > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org [mailto:pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On > Behalf Of Warren Toomey > Sent: 01 April 2008 05:40 > To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society > Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD patches? > > ----- Forwarded message from Jonathan Engdahl ----- > > Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:50:29 -0500 > From: Jonathan Engdahl > To: wkt at tuhs.org, sms at 2bsd.com > Subject: 2.11BSD > > I don't know what got into me. I decided to fire up a PDP-11. I have not > touched one of these for about 5 years. I've mostly been messing with > embedded Linux stuff. > > The 2.11BSD patch archive has gone offline. Do you know if there is a > mirror of this somewhere? > > http://moe.2bsd.com/ > > Jonathan Engdahl > ----- End forwarded message ----- > _______________________________________________ > PUPS mailing list > PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups > > _______________________________________________ > PUPS mailing list > PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups > From dave at dogwood.com Wed Apr 9 06:38:23 2008 From: dave at dogwood.com (David Cornejo) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 10:38:23 -1000 Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD patches? In-Reply-To: <000001c899b4$672c2b10$0200a8c0@robinslaptop> References: <20080401043951.GE26449@minnie.tuhs.org> <000001c899b4$672c2b10$0200a8c0@robinslaptop> Message-ID: <4ab61a80804081338q1f515badx249198866b67a839@mail.gmail.com> it's also been mirrored here: ftp://white.dogwood.com/pub/2.11BSD (O'ahu Hawai'i) On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Robin Birch wrote: > Warren, > I've downloaded the whole thing from Steve's site. Do you want me to send > this to you so that you can make it publicly available. I've checked this > with Steve and he's ok with it. > > Robin > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org [mailto:pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On > Behalf Of Warren Toomey > Sent: 01 April 2008 05:40 > To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society > Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD patches? > > ----- Forwarded message from Jonathan Engdahl ----- > > Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:50:29 -0500 > From: Jonathan Engdahl > To: wkt at tuhs.org, sms at 2bsd.com > Subject: 2.11BSD > > I don't know what got into me. I decided to fire up a PDP-11. I have not > touched one of these for about 5 years. I've mostly been messing with > embedded Linux stuff. > > The 2.11BSD patch archive has gone offline. Do you know if there is a > mirror of this somewhere? > > http://moe.2bsd.com/ > > Jonathan Engdahl > ----- End forwarded message ----- > _______________________________________________ > PUPS mailing list > PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups > > _______________________________________________ > PUPS mailing list > PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups > From milov at uwlax.edu Wed Apr 30 00:38:31 2008 From: milov at uwlax.edu (Milo Velimirovic) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:38:31 -0500 Subject: [pups] [Unix-jun72] Is there anything I can do to help? In-Reply-To: <4817151F.7030204@gmail.com> References: <4817151F.7030204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <69C9D0A1-F0A5-4A27-909A-283F6603A6B6@uwlax.edu> I'm really interested in this project. My first exposure to the -11 was in 1976. I learned assembly language in the second computer science course I took on an 11/20. Since then I've been a big fan of the pdp11 and own several of the more recent designs. I'd be happy to help with this project but I don't have any free timem to devote for another week. I have a pdp11/05 that is comparable to the 11/20 in terms of speed and instruction set. I need help in restoring it to operating condition. Sepcifically the power supplies need some transistors to be replaced. There are also a bunch of other things that may need help. Core is of unknown capacity but it's doubtful that it exceeds 24kW. I'd also prefer not to have to resurrect a hardcopy console which means converting the console interface on the CPU board to talk to a more modern serial device. Any constructive :) suggestions welcome. - Milo On Apr 29, 2008, at 7:31 AM, Andrew Warkentin wrote: > Is there anything I can do to help restore this system? I'm not very > familiar with PDP-11 assembly. > _______________________________________________ > Unix-jun72 mailing list > Unix-jun72 at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/unix-jun72 -- Milo Velimirović, Unix Computer Network Administrator 608.785.6618 Office - 608.386.2817 Cell University of Wisconsin - La Crosse La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 48 N 91 13 53 W From wkt at tuhs.org Tue Apr 29 08:38:59 2008 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:38:59 +1000 Subject: [Unix-jun72] New mailing list for Unix 1972 effort Message-ID: <20080428223859.GA3698@minnie.tuhs.org> All, I've just created a mailing list for the people involved in the effort to reconstruct the Unix kernel from the 1972 assembly listing. I thought it would be good to keep the mundane details of the work separate from the TUHS mailing list. The new list is unix-jun72 at tuhs.org I've manually subscribed the e-mail addresses that seem to be interested in the work. If you want to be removed from the new list, e-mail me. If you want to subscribe to the list, you can go here to do that: https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/unix-jun72 Cheers, Warren From wkt at tuhs.org Tue Apr 29 08:49:32 2008 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:49:32 +1000 Subject: [Unix-jun72] Existing resources Message-ID: <20080428224932.GA3915@minnie.tuhs.org> I just thought I'd make a quick list of what we have at our disposal, apart from the humans that is :) http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/bellLabs/unix/PreliminaryUnixImplementationDocument_Jun72.pdf - the 1972 kernel on paper, currently being OCR'd in http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/1stEdman.html http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/Dennis_v3/v3man.tar.gz - manuals for 1st and 3rd Edition UNIX. I have 2nd Ed on paper, and I'll scan it in. http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/1972_stuff/ - binaries from around 1972 in the s2.tar.gz tarball. - fragment of source code from 1972 in s1-fragments.tar.gz. http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Early_C_Compilers/ - early C compiler source, known to be working and can recompile itself. The last1120c.tar.gz is probably the one best suited to the 1972 kernel. http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Emulators/Apout/ - Apout, an emulator which can actually run the 1972 binaries. This means we can use the 1972 tools to help reconstruct the system. http://simh.trailing-edge.com/ - Bob Supnik's simh emulator, which we can use to boot the kernel once it's typed in and assembled Cheers, Warren From newsham at lava.net Tue Apr 29 09:03:09 2008 From: newsham at lava.net (Tim Newsham) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:03:09 -1000 (HST) Subject: [Unix-jun72] Some discussion In-Reply-To: <20080428224932.GA3915@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20080428224932.GA3915@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: Below I include part of an email I sent out to Brantley earlier on my plans. I've been using 7ed unix and "as" so far to compile the pieces of the source as they've become available. I have a "sys.s" file in the svn that defines the system calls per the u1.s file (Brantley says the older versions of "as" had the syscall table built in): $ as - sys.s u0.s ux.s and used that as a quick litmus test for syntax errors. Now that I am aware of apout I will probably start using the "as" from the 1972 bits. earlier comments: ----- As for putting the machine together, I've put together some notes in the svn under machine.txt. It seems to be a pdp 11/20 with 24kbytes ram, and rk03, rf, ttys on a dc-11, tape on tc-11. I think all of this should be fairly easy to set up in simh except the ttys (and console is only used in single user according to docs). Simh doesnt support 24kbyte ram setting, but 32k should prob work fine. Interestingly the kernel has a build mode ("cold") where it will build a new filesystem on disk, so that might make bringing up the system a little easier. There's a boot sequence that seems a little elaborate described in one of the 1st ed manuals, but probably for initial bring-up it would be sufficient to just deposit all the values in the right place with simh using a script to generate the simh config... If you have any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. I've played with pdp-11 in simh before, but a lot of this is still new to me. Tim Newsham http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/ From newsham at lava.net Tue Apr 29 11:33:25 2008 From: newsham at lava.net (Tim Newsham) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 15:33:25 -1000 (HST) Subject: [Unix-jun72] assembling ux.s Message-ID: I am trying out apout using the "1972_stuff" binaries. When using "as" to assemble "ux" (e10-01 through e10-02) it gives an error "m 0024" (multiply-defined label) for the line: mount: .=.+1024. I assume this is because the assembler has predefined the "mount" system call (I ran across this earlier when using my system call table sys.s with ux with the v7 assembler). We can work around this (ie. use the v7 assembler without the definition for "mount"), but it worries me a little -- why does the listing have such an obvious and large flaw? The symbol "mount" is used in several places, so this isn't likely to be a small typo. I can't think of a good explanation as to why this error would exist in the listing other than possibly pointing to another assembler being used. Tim Newsham http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/ From wkt at tuhs.org Tue Apr 29 16:31:01 2008 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:31:01 +1000 Subject: [Unix-jun72] assembling ux.s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080429063101.GA23694@minnie.tuhs.org> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 03:33:25PM -1000, Tim Newsham wrote: > I am trying out apout using the "1972_stuff" binaries. When using > "as" to assemble "ux" (e10-01 through e10-02) it gives an error > "m 0024" (multiply-defined label) for the line: > > mount: .=.+1024. > > I assume this is because the assembler has predefined the "mount" > system call (I ran across this earlier when using my system call > table sys.s with ux with the v7 assembler). It does look like this is the case. The manual says that syscall names are pre-defined, and in these source fragments from 1972, you can see that as definitely knows about mount and open: http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/1972_stuff/s1/frag37.html http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/1972_stuff/s1/frag22.html I've sent an e-mail to Dennis to see if he can remember what the procedure was to rebuild the kernel from the assembly source. Cheers, Warren From andreww591 at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 22:31:27 2008 From: andreww591 at gmail.com (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 06:31:27 -0600 Subject: [Unix-jun72] Is there anything I can do to help? Message-ID: <4817151F.7030204@gmail.com> Is there anything I can do to help restore this system? I'm not very familiar with PDP-11 assembly. From milov at uwlax.edu Wed Apr 30 00:38:31 2008 From: milov at uwlax.edu (Milo Velimirovic) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:38:31 -0500 Subject: [Unix-jun72] Is there anything I can do to help? In-Reply-To: <4817151F.7030204@gmail.com> References: <4817151F.7030204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <69C9D0A1-F0A5-4A27-909A-283F6603A6B6@uwlax.edu> I'm really interested in this project. My first exposure to the -11 was in 1976. I learned assembly language in the second computer science course I took on an 11/20. Since then I've been a big fan of the pdp11 and own several of the more recent designs. I'd be happy to help with this project but I don't have any free timem to devote for another week. I have a pdp11/05 that is comparable to the 11/20 in terms of speed and instruction set. I need help in restoring it to operating condition. Sepcifically the power supplies need some transistors to be replaced. There are also a bunch of other things that may need help. Core is of unknown capacity but it's doubtful that it exceeds 24kW. I'd also prefer not to have to resurrect a hardcopy console which means converting the console interface on the CPU board to talk to a more modern serial device. Any constructive :) suggestions welcome. - Milo On Apr 29, 2008, at 7:31 AM, Andrew Warkentin wrote: > Is there anything I can do to help restore this system? I'm not very > familiar with PDP-11 assembly. > _______________________________________________ > Unix-jun72 mailing list > Unix-jun72 at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/unix-jun72 -- Milo Velimirović, Unix Computer Network Administrator 608.785.6618 Office - 608.386.2817 Cell University of Wisconsin - La Crosse La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 48 N 91 13 53 W From newsham at lava.net Wed Apr 30 03:00:22 2008 From: newsham at lava.net (Tim Newsham) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 07:00:22 -1000 (HST) Subject: [Unix-jun72] Is there anything I can do to help? In-Reply-To: <4817151F.7030204@gmail.com> References: <4817151F.7030204@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Is there anything I can do to help restore this system? I'm not very > familiar with PDP-11 assembly. Anyone who wants to help and doesn't mind a little tedium, we still need people to review some of the sections. If you go to the svn and read the notes file you'll notice that many sections haven't been reviewed yet. Just add your name to the section you are going to commit to, and start comparing the entered pages to the original document. In particular take care to look for the use of capital O in place of 0 (zero) and the use of 1 (one) I (eye) and l (ell). If you find any weirdness in the original document please enter it as-is and document it in the notes file. When you're done your edits, commit them back to the svn. You'll need to send me your google account name for me to add you to the project so you can check out the code with commit access. It would probably be a good idea to drop an email to the list claiming your piece of work, too. Tim Newsham http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/ From cyrille.lefevre-lists at laposte.net Wed Apr 30 10:16:41 2008 From: cyrille.lefevre-lists at laposte.net (Cyrille Lefevre) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 02:16:41 +0200 Subject: [Unix-jun72] tif images Message-ID: <4817BA69.6010301@laposte.net> Hi, here is my 2p : http://cyrillelefevre.free.fr/jun72/jun72.zip which is an archive of automatically extracted tif images from the original pdf file. so, no need to print/scan any more... Regards, Cyrille Lefevre -- mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre-lists at laposte.net From cyrille.lefevre-lists at laposte.net Wed Apr 30 11:14:52 2008 From: cyrille.lefevre-lists at laposte.net (Cyrille Lefevre) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 03:14:52 +0200 Subject: [Unix-jun72] tif images In-Reply-To: <4817BA69.6010301@laposte.net> References: <4817BA69.6010301@laposte.net> Message-ID: <4817C80C.5060708@laposte.net> Cyrille Lefevre a écrit : > Hi, > > here is my 2p : > > http://cyrillelefevre.free.fr/jun72/jun72.zip > > which is an archive of automatically extracted tif images from the > original pdf file. > > so, no need to print/scan any more... don't know if this may help, but here is an archive of converted tif to raw text using tesseract (233 KB). http://cyrillelefevre.free.fr/jun72/jun72.zip yet another conversion using VeryPDF Image2PDF-OCR which enable text selection using Acrobat (13.4 MB) http://cyrillelefevre.free.fr/jun72/jun72.pdf PS : the tiff archive is 12.6 MB heavy. Regards, Cyrille Lefevre -- mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre-lists at laposte.net From cyrille.lefevre-lists at laposte.net Wed Apr 30 11:17:42 2008 From: cyrille.lefevre-lists at laposte.net (Cyrille Lefevre) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 03:17:42 +0200 Subject: [Unix-jun72] tif images In-Reply-To: <4817C80C.5060708@laposte.net> References: <4817BA69.6010301@laposte.net> <4817C80C.5060708@laposte.net> Message-ID: <4817C8B6.2090402@laposte.net> Cyrille Lefevre a écrit : > don't know if this may help, but here is an archive of converted tif to > raw text using tesseract (233 KB). > > http://cyrillelefevre.free.fr/jun72/jun72.zip it's : http://cyrillelefevre.free.fr/jun72/jun72tesseract.zip Regards, Cyrille Lefevre -- mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre-lists at laposte.net From wkt at tuhs.org Wed Apr 30 20:21:20 2008 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:21:20 +1000 Subject: [Unix-jun72] Disassembler in progress Message-ID: <20080430102120.GA84492@minnie.tuhs.org> Guys, I'm writing a PDP-11 a.out disassember. I think it will be useful for a couple of reasons: - we will be able to convert the extant 1972 binaries back into some form of source code. It won't be as good as the real thing, but it will be better than the binary. - we have some source code in fragmentary form on the s1 tape, see http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/1972_stuff/. Some of the fragments are identifiable, some are not. We might be able to use the diassembled binaries to identify some of the fragments, and even reconstruct a hybrid original/diassembled version of the source for some of the 1972 applications. Right now, here's what I've got: disassembly of the top of 1972 ls: sys break: 00 mov $01,044260 mov sp,r5 mov (r5)+,043732 tst (r5)+ dec 043732 mov 043732,043734 bgt 040056 mov $042542,r5 mov (r5)+,r4 cmpb (r4)+,$055 bne 040174 dec 043734 and the top of the frag19 file: sys break; end+512. mov $1,obuf mov sp,r5 mov (r5)+,count tst (r5)+ dec count mov count,ocount bgt loop mov $dotp,r5 loop: mov (r5)+,r4 cmpb (r4)+,$'- bne 1f dec ocount At the moment it's a 1-pass disassembler. I want to make it 2-pass: on the first pass I will try to identify labels for branches, functions, strings and variable locations (and given them arbitrary names); on the second pass I'll print out the instructions with reference to the labels. None of the binaries have symbol tables, unfortunately. It's a start, anyway. Warren From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Apr 30 23:01:51 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:01:51 -0400 Subject: [Unix-jun72] ocr'd e03 In-Reply-To: <20080430102120.GA84492@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <3018.1209560511@mini> Hi, I'm new to this (just discovered it - way cool!), so as an experiment I opened the scanned pdf and cut and pasted e03-01,02,03,04 into gimp, shrunk them to 3000x3000 and sent them to the tesseract web site. It does an amazing job. A little emacs work and the source looks good. Anyway, I know e03 is assigned to someone else, but they where not in the svn. should I check them in? (I just did it as an experiment, and I don't want to step on anyone;) I'm also curious how we boot strap this. In the end I assume we need a binary image which one of the sims can read. I have 0.5 a mind to write a quick and dirty assembler which outputs a binary file... But I suppose it would be better to use the original as/as2. Can this be run with apout? (I'd be curious to hear how people are doing it). I'm happy to keep plugging through the remaining un-ocr'd pages if no one screams, sending email first of course. -brad From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz Wed Apr 9 19:05:54 2008 From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 21:05:54 +1200 Subject: [TUHS] the V distributed system Message-ID: <200804092105.54738.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> I was researching various windowing systems for various reasons and I found the mention of the V distributed sytem on the W article stub on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W_Window_System "W was originally developed at Stanford University by Paul Asente and Brian Reid for the V operating system." A few questions here: is V close enough to Unix to warrant winding up in an "Other" category in the TUHS repository? Does anyone have a copy of it (plus source if possible)? If so, who should I contact? Thanks Wesley Parish -- Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish ----- Gaul is quartered into three halves. Things which are impossible are equal to each other. Guerrilla warfare means up to their monkey tricks. Extracts from "Schoolboy Howlers" - the collective wisdom of the foolish. ----- Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui? You ask, what is the most important thing? Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata. I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 10 01:31:30 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 08:31:30 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] the V distributed system In-Reply-To: <200804092105.54738.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> References: <200804092105.54738.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <47FCE152.20400@bitsavers.org> Wesley Parish wrote: > > A few questions here: is V close enough to Unix to warrant winding up in > an "Other" category in the TUHS repository? Possibly, though the main connection is the implementation language. You can refer to documents on it at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/stanford/v-system Does anyone have a copy of it > (plus source if possible)? If so, who should I contact? At one point, Stanford was licensing it. Check with David Cherriton to see what its current status is. Copies may be available if clearance can be obtained to release it. From andreww591 at gmail.com Fri Apr 11 11:26:45 2008 From: andreww591 at gmail.com (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:26:45 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] test Message-ID: <47FEBE55.3050106@gmail.com> This is a test. Please ignore. (checking if I am subscribed - the server doesn't appear to be sending success messages) From wkt at tuhs.org Wed Apr 23 16:03:56 2008 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:03:56 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? Message-ID: <20080423060356.GA88398@minnie.tuhs.org> All, I'm sure I saw a PDF document a few years ago which was an early UNIX kernel written in assembly code. I thought I had saved the document, but alas I can't find it. Can anybody remind me where to get it, or perhaps I was hallucinating! Thanks, Warren From wkt at tuhs.org Wed Apr 23 16:07:21 2008 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:07:21 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: <20080423060356.GA88398@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20080423060356.GA88398@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 04:03:56PM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > I'm sure I saw a PDF document a few years ago which was an early > UNIX kernel written in assembly code. I thought I had saved the document, > but alas I can't find it. Can anybody remind me where to get it, or > perhaps I was hallucinating! Humph, I should always delay 5 minutes before e-mailing :-) I just found it at bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/bellLabs/unix/PreliminaryUnixImplementationDocument_Jun72.pdf Warren From newsham at lava.net Thu Apr 24 04:27:59 2008 From: newsham at lava.net (Tim Newsham) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:27:59 -1000 (HST) Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20080423060356.GA88398@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: > Humph, I should always delay 5 minutes before e-mailing :-) I just > found it at bitsavers: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/bellLabs/unix/PreliminaryUnixImplementationDocument_Jun72.pdf wow, I didn't know that so much of the system was still around somewhere. Has anyone started work on typing it in and trying to get a system built? (would make for great captchas ;-) How complimentary are these listings with the "1972_stuff" on TUHS? > Warren Tim Newsham http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/ From wkt at tuhs.org Thu Apr 24 10:07:36 2008 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:07:36 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: References: <20080423060356.GA88398@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 08:27:59AM -1000, Tim Newsham wrote: > >Humph, I should always delay 5 minutes before e-mailing :-) I just > >found it at bitsavers: > >http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/bellLabs/unix/PreliminaryUnixImplementationDocument_Jun72.pdf > > wow, I didn't know that so much of the system was still around somewhere. > Has anyone started work on typing it in and trying to get a system > built? I thought about it a while back, but the potential for OCR errors is high, and so too the frustration level. I'd say, only if someone was to fund the work :-) > How complementary are these listings with the "1972_stuff" on TUHS? the s2 tape in the PDP-11/Distributions/research/1972_stuff area contains userland binaries and libraries from 1972, so there's a strong possibility that the kernel in the PDF document would be able to execute the binaries. Cheers, Warren From newsham at lava.net Thu Apr 24 11:57:41 2008 From: newsham at lava.net (Tim Newsham) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 15:57:41 -1000 (HST) Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20080423060356.GA88398@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: > I thought about it a while back, but the potential for OCR errors is high, > and so too the frustration level. I'd say, only if someone was to fund the > work :-) What about a community effort? The sources start on pdf page 6 and go through pdf page 96. That's only 91 pages. If someone was to OCR these and place them in some distributed revision control, one page per file, and 9 people each took ownership over 10 pages each, it wouldn't take that much effort to get it done. Someone would have to write scripts to glue the pages properly back into files, but that should be a fairly minor effort in comparison. Finally someone would have to get build tools appropriate for processing the files, and feed back the errors to the contributors to help fix up (or provide tools for contributors to test their work independently). I could commit myself to 10 pages if others were willing to come forward and take a chunk. > the s2 tape in the PDP-11/Distributions/research/1972_stuff area contains > userland binaries and libraries from 1972, so there's a strong possibility > that the kernel in the PDF document would be able to execute the binaries. Restoring most of a working 1972 unix software system would be incredible. > Warren Tim Newsham http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/ From newsham at lava.net Thu Apr 24 16:04:10 2008 From: newsham at lava.net (Tim Newsham) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:04:10 -1000 (HST) Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: References: <20080423060356.GA88398@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: > What about a community effort? The sources start on pdf page 6 and go > through pdf page 96. That's only 91 pages. If someone was to OCR these > and place them in some distributed revision control, one page per file, > and 9 people each took ownership over 10 pages each, it wouldn't take > that much effort to get it done. Someone would have to write scripts > to glue the pages properly back into files, but that should be a fairly > minor effort in comparison. Finally someone would have to get build > tools appropriate for processing the files, and feed back the errors > to the contributors to help fix up (or provide tools for contributors > to test their work independently). > > I could commit myself to 10 pages if others were willing to come forward > and take a chunk. Here's a start. http://www.thenewsh.com/%7Enewsham/unix_jun72/ I did the 10 pages of section E00. It took me about 3-4 hours. The files should probably be reviewed, so I'm estimating about 5 hours of work for 10 pages. If other people are interested in committing their time, I'll commit to another 10 pages plus reviewing 10 pages of someone elses work if someone will review my work. Tim Newsham http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/ From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 25 02:34:39 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:34:39 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: References: <20080423060356.GA88398@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <4810B69F.1000500@bitsavers.org> Tim Newsham wrote: >> What about a community effort? I went back into the archive and rescanned the entire document at 400dpi uncompressed 8bits/pixel. Someone I know has been working on an OCR program optimized for printouts, I'm hoping to get him interested. What would be more interesting is recovering the original program documentation which appeared in the same document, but is very light. There was also the original hand-written version from Jan-Mar 1972 which I also scanned. From newsham at lava.net Fri Apr 25 02:44:56 2008 From: newsham at lava.net (Tim Newsham) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 06:44:56 -1000 (HST) Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: <4810B69F.1000500@bitsavers.org> References: <20080423060356.GA88398@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> <4810B69F.1000500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Tim Newsham wrote: >>> What about a community effort? > > I went back into the archive and rescanned the entire document at 400dpi > uncompressed 8bits/pixel. Someone I know has been working on an OCR program > optimized for printouts, I'm hoping to get him interested. That would be great and would make the effort much easier! > What would be more interesting is recovering the original program > documentation > which appeared in the same document, but is very light. There was also the > original hand-written version from Jan-Mar 1972 which I also scanned. I'm much more interested in reconstructing a running system, myself. The documentation is great to have, but its already readable (although not searchable) in the current pdf. At least in most places (there are some really faded sections). Tim Newsham http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/ From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 25 03:16:00 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:16:00 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: <143F6603-5D78-4C0E-B159-F421657356C9@tfeb.org> References: <20080423060356.GA88398@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> <4810B69F.1000500@bitsavers.org> <143F6603-5D78-4C0E-B159-F421657356C9@tfeb.org> Message-ID: <4810C050.3030507@bitsavers.org> Tim Bradshaw wrote: > I think it's fascinating that we may end up with a working first edition > Unix which has been *typed in by hand in 2008*. Only the kernel. Sounds like Warren has the rest in machine-readable form. This is exactly what they had to do to get DTSS running again. The code was retyped from a listing that a field service engineer had saved in his garage. I see this a LOT at the Computer History Museum. The oldest code has only survived on paper (tape, cards, listings). Almost no magnetic media has survived from the 60's. I was recently talking to someone about OS/360, and it appears almost none of it from the 60's has survived, which is staggering considering how pervasive those systems were. From tfb at tfeb.org Fri Apr 25 03:07:07 2008 From: tfb at tfeb.org (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:07:07 +0100 Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: References: <20080423060356.GA88398@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> <4810B69F.1000500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <143F6603-5D78-4C0E-B159-F421657356C9@tfeb.org> > > I'm much more interested in reconstructing a running system, myself. > The documentation is great to have, but its already readable (although > not searchable) in the current pdf. At least in most places (there > are > some really faded sections). I think it's fascinating that we may end up with a working first edition Unix which has been *typed in by hand in 2008*. None of the bits will actually be the original ones. Borges would be proud ("Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote" is the story I am thinking of). If anyone is looking for volunteers I would have a go at typing bits in, but I do not know how much time I'm likely to have. --tim From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Fri Apr 25 03:27:17 2008 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:27:17 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: <4810C050.3030507@bitsavers.org> References: <20080423060356.GA88398@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> <4810B69F.1000500@bitsavers.org> <143F6603-5D78-4C0E-B159-F421657356C9@tfeb.org> <4810C050.3030507@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8dd2d95c0804241027x3280724aq8d48bdf044b690a2@mail.gmail.com> I guess we need to start archiving all software on acid-free archival paper, then. It's the only way it'll survive. From newsham at lava.net Fri Apr 25 03:30:58 2008 From: newsham at lava.net (Tim Newsham) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:30:58 -1000 (HST) Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0804241027x3280724aq8d48bdf044b690a2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080423060356.GA88398@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> <4810B69F.1000500@bitsavers.org> <143F6603-5D78-4C0E-B159-F421657356C9@tfeb.org> <4810C050.3030507@bitsavers.org> <8dd2d95c0804241027x3280724aq8d48bdf044b690a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I guess we need to start archiving all software on acid-free archival > paper, then. It's the only way it'll survive. And not necessarily in human readable form -- how about some format that is very easy to ocr with minimal errors and error correcting codes? ps: how many pages to archive a gigabyte of src code? ;-) Tim Newsham http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/ From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 25 03:45:08 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:45:08 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0804241027x3280724aq8d48bdf044b690a2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080423060356.GA88398@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> <4810B69F.1000500@bitsavers.org> <143F6603-5D78-4C0E-B159-F421657356C9@tfeb.org> <4810C050.3030507@bitsavers.org> <8dd2d95c0804241027x3280724aq8d48bdf044b690a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4810C724.8020409@bitsavers.org> Michael Kerpan wrote: > I guess we need to start archiving all software on acid-free archival > paper, then. It's the only way it'll survive. The reason it didn't survive was no one cared about saving it. Companies actively destroyed it so they didn't have to support it, or have it available for legal descovery. The paper copies survive because someone tossed a listing in a box and threw it in their garage. So it wasn't really the archival medium that is the problem, but the fact that there was no monetary reason to save it. What has been saved from the past 20-30 years has demonstrated that people are taking some interest in software preservation now, and mirrored archives reflect the fact is pretty easy to implement basic digital preservation through replication. One of the issues I run into is what to save. The early stuff is easy, you save anything from before 1975 that can still be found. PC era and forward is MUCH more difficult because of the volume. From wb at freebie.xs4all.nl Fri Apr 25 03:38:39 2008 From: wb at freebie.xs4all.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 19:38:39 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0804241027x3280724aq8d48bdf044b690a2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> <4810B69F.1000500@bitsavers.org> <143F6603-5D78-4C0E-B159-F421657356C9@tfeb.org> <4810C050.3030507@bitsavers.org> <8dd2d95c0804241027x3280724aq8d48bdf044b690a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080424173839.GA99065@freebie.xs4all.nl> Quoting Michael Kerpan, who wrote on Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 01:27:17PM -0400 .. > I guess we need to start archiving all software on acid-free archival > paper, then. It's the only way it'll survive. Papertape. The info is in the holes.. ;-) Wilko From lyricalnanoha at dosius.ath.cx Fri Apr 25 03:35:55 2008 From: lyricalnanoha at dosius.ath.cx (lyricalnanoha) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:35:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: References: <20080423060356.GA88398@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> <4810B69F.1000500@bitsavers.org> <143F6603-5D78-4C0E-B159-F421657356C9@tfeb.org> <4810C050.3030507@bitsavers.org> <8dd2d95c0804241027x3280724aq8d48bdf044b690a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Apr 2008, Tim Newsham wrote: >> I guess we need to start archiving all software on acid-free archival >> paper, then. It's the only way it'll survive. > > And not necessarily in human readable form -- how about some format > that is very easy to ocr with minimal errors and error correcting codes? Like a hexadecimal dump? -uso. From cowan at ccil.org Fri Apr 25 04:07:59 2008 From: cowan at ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:07:59 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0804241027x3280724aq8d48bdf044b690a2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> <4810B69F.1000500@bitsavers.org> <143F6603-5D78-4C0E-B159-F421657356C9@tfeb.org> <4810C050.3030507@bitsavers.org> <8dd2d95c0804241027x3280724aq8d48bdf044b690a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080424180759.GE13977@mercury.ccil.org> Michael Kerpan scripsit: > I guess we need to start archiving all software on acid-free archival > paper, then. It's the only way it'll survive. That doesn't protect it from being thrown out. Archiving can be done on any medium: what matters is that there is someone with the right, the power, and the concern to make copies of it periodically onto new media. -- John Cowan cowan at ccil.org "You need a change: try Canada" "You need a change: try China" --fortune cookies opened by a couple that I know From ckeck at texoma.net Fri Apr 25 04:15:28 2008 From: ckeck at texoma.net (ckeck at texoma.net) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:15:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: References: <20080423060356.GA88398@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> <4810B69F.1000500@bitsavers.org> <143F6603-5D78-4C0E-B159-F421657356C9@tfeb.org> <4810C050.3030507@bitsavers.org> <8dd2d95c0804241027x3280724aq8d48bdf044b690a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: What about magneto-optical disks? They are supposed to last 50 years. Problem is that one would have to not only hold on to the disks, but also the drives, as well as a system with a SCSI I/F. -Cornelius On Thu, 24 Apr 2008, Tim Newsham wrote: > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:30:58 -1000 (HST) > From: Tim Newsham > To: Michael Kerpan > Cc: tuhs at tuhs.org > Subject: Re: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? > > > I guess we need to start archiving all software on acid-free archival > > paper, then. It's the only way it'll survive. > > And not necessarily in human readable form -- how about some format > that is very easy to ocr with minimal errors and error correcting codes? > > ps: how many pages to archive a gigabyte of src code? ;-) > > Tim Newsham > http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/ > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs > -- Cornelius Keck -----------------------------------------> ckeck at texoma.net From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 25 04:40:23 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:40:23 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: References: <20080423060356.GA88398@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> <4810B69F.1000500@bitsavers.org> <143F6603-5D78-4C0E-B159-F421657356C9@tfeb.org> <4810C050.3030507@bitsavers.org> <8dd2d95c0804241027x3280724aq8d48bdf044b690a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4810D417.8040005@bitsavers.org> ckeck at texoma.net wrote: > What about magneto-optical disks? They are supposed to last 50 years. This is the wrong way to think about preservation of digital data, which is inherently easy to duplicate without loss. You don't want to wait 50 years to find out there is no economical way to read the media someone wrote in the past. As John said: "Archiving can be done on any medium: what matters is that there is someone with the right, the power, and the concern to make copies of it periodically onto new media." The critical point to add to this is that the data integrity needs to be constantly verified, even on presumed stable storage, and it is migrated to what at that time is easily to deal with storage, so you CAN easily verify it. From milov at uwlax.edu Fri Apr 25 04:39:30 2008 From: milov at uwlax.edu (Milo Velimirovic) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:39:30 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: <20080424173839.GA99065@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> <4810B69F.1000500@bitsavers.org> <143F6603-5D78-4C0E-B159-F421657356C9@tfeb.org> <4810C050.3030507@bitsavers.org> <8dd2d95c0804241027x3280724aq8d48bdf044b690a2@mail.gmail.com> <20080424173839.GA99065@freebie.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <77B03391-56D2-40EB-AE41-7E23854EA55E@uwlax.edu> bar codes printed on archival paper -- what was the name of the format that was published in BYTE? On Apr 24, 2008, at 12:38 PM, Wilko Bulte wrote: > Quoting Michael Kerpan, who wrote on Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 01:27:17PM > -0400 .. >> I guess we need to start archiving all software on acid-free archival >> paper, then. It's the only way it'll survive. > > Papertape. > > The info is in the holes.. > > ;-) > > Wilko > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs -- Milo Velimirović, Unix Computer Network Administrator 608-785-6618 Office - 608-386-2817 Cell University of Wisconsin - La Crosse La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 48 N 91 13 53 W -- There's a reason Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson have been awarded the U.S. National Medal of Technology (1998) and are fellows of the Computer History Museum Online. Dave Cutler hasn't and isn't. "You are not expected to understand this." From newsham at lava.net Fri Apr 25 04:43:18 2008 From: newsham at lava.net (Tim Newsham) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:43:18 -1000 (HST) Subject: [TUHS] ocr/typing jun72 unix kernel code Message-ID: I've started an SVN for the OCR'd results: http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/ if anyone needs commit access email me your account name. I've already assigned some blocks to people. If you want a block either claim it in the notes.txt file or email me and I'll add it. Also if you have plans to perform raw OCRs of large sections of the original doc, please let me know or make a note of it in the notes.txt file. Tim Newsham http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/ From milov at uwlax.edu Fri Apr 25 04:44:37 2008 From: milov at uwlax.edu (Milo Velimirovic) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:44:37 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: References: <20080423060356.GA88398@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> <4810B69F.1000500@bitsavers.org> <143F6603-5D78-4C0E-B159-F421657356C9@tfeb.org> <4810C050.3030507@bitsavers.org> <8dd2d95c0804241027x3280724aq8d48bdf044b690a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'd vote against. The MO disks and drive in my NeXT no longer work. (of course if anyone has advice for resuscitating MO devices, I'm all ears.) - Milo On Apr 24, 2008, at 1:15 PM, ckeck at texoma.net wrote: > What about magneto-optical disks? They are supposed to last 50 years. > Problem is that one would have to not only hold on to the disks, but > also > the drives, as well as a system with a SCSI I/F. > > -Cornelius > > On Thu, 24 Apr 2008, Tim Newsham wrote: > >> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:30:58 -1000 (HST) >> From: Tim Newsham >> To: Michael Kerpan >> Cc: tuhs at tuhs.org >> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? >> >>> I guess we need to start archiving all software on acid-free >>> archival >>> paper, then. It's the only way it'll survive. >> >> And not necessarily in human readable form -- how about some format >> that is very easy to ocr with minimal errors and error correcting >> codes? >> >> ps: how many pages to archive a gigabyte of src code? ;-) >> >> Tim Newsham >> http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/ >> _______________________________________________ >> TUHS mailing list >> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org >> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs >> > > -- > Cornelius Keck -----------------------------------------> ckeck at texoma.net > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs -- Milo Velimirović, Unix Computer Network Administrator 608-785-6618 Office - 608-386-2817 Cell University of Wisconsin - La Crosse La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 48 N 91 13 53 W -- Unix: Where /etc/init is job #1. From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Apr 25 04:57:12 2008 From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:57:12 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: <4810D417.8040005@bitsavers.org> References: <4810D417.8040005@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20080424.125712.756919467.imp@bsdimp.com> In message: <4810D417.8040005 at bitsavers.org> Al Kossow writes: : The critical point to add to this is that the data integrity needs to be : constantly verified, even on presumed stable storage, and it is migrated : to what at that time is easily to deal with storage, so you CAN easily : verify it. I keep my archives on a series of disks. There's always at least 2 copies, often times more, and the underlying disks get swapped out on a round-robin basis. Helps limit my exposure to one or two failures... I've had horrible luck with all other methods... Warner From lm at bitmover.com Fri Apr 25 05:02:39 2008 From: lm at bitmover.com (Larry McVoy) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:02:39 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: <20080424.125712.756919467.imp@bsdimp.com> References: <4810D417.8040005@bitsavers.org> <20080424.125712.756919467.imp@bsdimp.com> Message-ID: <20080424190239.GC26001@bitmover.com> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:57:12PM -0600, M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <4810D417.8040005 at bitsavers.org> > Al Kossow writes: > : The critical point to add to this is that the data integrity needs to be > : constantly verified, even on presumed stable storage, and it is migrated > : to what at that time is easily to deal with storage, so you CAN easily > : verify it. > > I keep my archives on a series of disks. There's always at least 2 > copies, often times more, and the underlying disks get swapped out on > a round-robin basis. Helps limit my exposure to one or two > failures... I've had horrible luck with all other methods... We do the same thing here. For /home which has all the stuff we really care about we have /nightly - last night's copy of the data /nightly2 - same thing, night before /weekly - last Sunday's copy of the data /weekly2 - same thing, week before and we do it so that diff foo /nightly/$PWD works. Handy, that. -- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitkeeper.com From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 25 05:35:30 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:35:30 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: <77B03391-56D2-40EB-AE41-7E23854EA55E@uwlax.edu> References: <20080423060721.GA92411@minnie.tuhs.org> <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> <4810B69F.1000500@bitsavers.org> <143F6603-5D78-4C0E-B159-F421657356C9@tfeb.org> <4810C050.3030507@bitsavers.org> <8dd2d95c0804241027x3280724aq8d48bdf044b690a2@mail.gmail.com> <20080424173839.GA99065@freebie.xs4all.nl> <77B03391-56D2-40EB-AE41-7E23854EA55E@uwlax.edu> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080424142112.057fc1e0@mail.threedee.com> At 01:39 PM 4/24/2008, Milo Velimirovic wrote: >bar codes printed on archival paper -- what was the name of the format that was published in BYTE? BYTE Paperbytes, Cauzin Softstrips, etc. But 2D bar codes have come a long way since then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_codes I'd say the larger problems are that laser toner doesn't stick enough, or sticks to other pages especially under heat or pressure or time, and inkjet ink is expensive and water-soluble. - John From peterjeremy at optushome.com.au Fri Apr 25 07:39:17 2008 From: peterjeremy at optushome.com.au (Peter Jeremy) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 07:39:17 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: References: <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> <4810B69F.1000500@bitsavers.org> <143F6603-5D78-4C0E-B159-F421657356C9@tfeb.org> <4810C050.3030507@bitsavers.org> <8dd2d95c0804241027x3280724aq8d48bdf044b690a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080424213916.GP92261@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 07:30:58AM -1000, Tim Newsham wrote: >> I guess we need to start archiving all software on acid-free archival >> paper, then. It's the only way it'll survive. > >And not necessarily in human readable form -- how about some format >that is very easy to ocr with minimal errors and error correcting codes? PGP successfully did this (primarily to work-around US crypto laws): http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=7024 Archiving digital data is actually a major problem: Not only do you need to be able to physically read the media but you need to be able to interpret the bits that you read. This probably means access to the software that was used to create it (more data to archive) running on the relevant OS (yet more data) and hardware (you might be able to emulate this if someone archive a good-enough description). -- Peter Jeremy Please excuse any delays as the result of my ISP's inability to implement an MTA that is either RFC2821-compliant or matches their claimed behaviour. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wb at freebie.xs4all.nl Fri Apr 25 16:27:50 2008 From: wb at freebie.xs4all.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:27:50 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: <20080424213916.GP92261@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <20080424000736.GA48312@minnie.tuhs.org> <4810B69F.1000500@bitsavers.org> <143F6603-5D78-4C0E-B159-F421657356C9@tfeb.org> <4810C050.3030507@bitsavers.org> <8dd2d95c0804241027x3280724aq8d48bdf044b690a2@mail.gmail.com> <20080424213916.GP92261@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20080425062750.GC3258@freebie.xs4all.nl> Quoting Peter Jeremy, who wrote on Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 07:39:17AM +1000 .. > On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 07:30:58AM -1000, Tim Newsham wrote: > >> I guess we need to start archiving all software on acid-free archival > >> paper, then. It's the only way it'll survive. > > > >And not necessarily in human readable form -- how about some format > >that is very easy to ocr with minimal errors and error correcting codes? > > PGP successfully did this (primarily to work-around US crypto laws): > http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=7024 > > Archiving digital data is actually a major problem: Not only do you > need to be able to physically read the media but you need to be able > to interpret the bits that you read. This probably means access to > the software that was used to create it (more data to archive) running Yeah... can you say "Microsoft Office" files? -- Wilko Bulte wilko at FreeBSD.org From lorddoomicus at mac.com Sat Apr 26 10:03:15 2008 From: lorddoomicus at mac.com (Lord Doomicus) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 20:03:15 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] The Coming 40th Anniversary of UNIX? Message-ID: It occurs to me that next year will the the 40th Anniversary of UNIX. Is anyone planning any type of celebration? Perhaps the Vintage Computer Festival? - Derrik Derrik Walker v2.0, RHCE lorddoomicus at mac.com http://www.doomd.net The twenty first century is when it all changes, and Torchwood is ready! - Captain Jack Harkness, Torchwood Three. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lm at bitmover.com Sat Apr 26 10:52:57 2008 From: lm at bitmover.com (Larry McVoy) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:52:57 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] The Coming 40th Anniversary of UNIX? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080426005257.GA24877@bitmover.com> Are dmr and bwk and ken on this list? Be fun to include them. If we want to have a bay area gathering I'll happily offer up my place, we have an annual pig roast here that is somewhat well attended by local geeks (ZFS guys, Linus, Dave Miller, some Bell Labs folks like Greg Chesson and Bart Locanthi the guy that did the BLIT with Rob Pike - still my favorite terminal). I'm probably forgetting somebody who will be pissed so sue me. But we gather a good crowd of geeks. http://bitmover.com/lm/pig_roast On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 08:03:15PM -0400, Lord Doomicus wrote: > It occurs to me that next year will the the 40th Anniversary of UNIX. > > Is anyone planning any type of celebration? Perhaps the Vintage > Computer Festival? > > - Derrik > > Derrik Walker v2.0, RHCE > lorddoomicus at mac.com > http://www.doomd.net > > The twenty first century is when it all changes, and Torchwood is ready! > - Captain Jack Harkness, Torchwood Three. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs -- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitkeeper.com From norman at oclsc.org Sat Apr 26 12:35:39 2008 From: norman at oclsc.org (Norman Wilson) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 21:35:39 -0500 (EDT) Subject: [TUHS] The Coming 40th Anniversary of UNIX? Message-ID: <1209173652.26155.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org> I'm sure there will be at least some recognition of the 40th anniversary at a certain event in mid-June 2009 in San Diego. Norman Wilson Toronto ON From pechter at gmail.com Sun Apr 27 01:17:42 2008 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 11:17:42 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] The Coming 40th Anniversary of UNIX? In-Reply-To: <1209173652.26155.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org> References: <1209173652.26155.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org> Message-ID: Would be nice to get them to VCF-East... It's at the old Evans area of Fort Monmouth near Neptune and Wall Township NJ. Not too far travel-wise. I wonder if the folks at MARCH (Mid Atlantic Retro Computing) know about this. Meanwhile it's off to the Trenton Computer Festival now. Bill On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 10:35 PM, Norman Wilson wrote: > I'm sure there will be at least some recognition of the 40th > anniversary at a certain event in mid-June 2009 in San Diego. > > Norman Wilson > Toronto ON > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs > -- -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wkt at tuhs.org Mon Apr 28 20:48:53 2008 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 20:48:53 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: <200804241753.KAA02899@mist.magic.com> References: <200804241753.KAA02899@mist.magic.com> Message-ID: <20080428104853.GB72917@minnie.tuhs.org> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:53:30AM -0700, James A. Markevitch wrote: > I have been referring to this as version "1.5" since the date is later > than the first edition manual, but before the second edition manual. > Does anyone know if it's truly V1 of the kernel, or something between > V1 and V2? The date on the first page of the memo (PDF) is September 1972. That puts the memo after 2nd Edition (June 1972) and 3rd Edition (Feb 1973). The s2 tape in the Unix Archive has binaries which are dated mainly in 1972, spread from January thru to December, so they should be contemporaneous with the kernel in the PDF. The 1st Edition manuals are on-line on Dennis Ritchie's web page at: http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/1stEdman.html I have a photocopy of the 2nd Edition manuals from Norman Wilson; I will scan them in as a bunch of tiffs. The 3rd Edition manuals are at http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/Dennis_v3/v3man.tar.gz but they refer to the C version, so they may not be as useful here. > Does anyone have utilities earlier than the "1972" stuff from TUHS? No, the s1 and s2 tapes are the earliest machine readable files that we have. I'm assuming that some of you are keen to see it running. It's going to take a lot of work, especially on the debugging side. The existing 1972 binaries are already executable using my Apout emulator, so that will help in two ways: we can run the old assembler, and we can tell if a bug was in a userland binary and not in the kernel. If I get a chance, I should try to compare the 1e and 2e manuals, to outline the kernel API differences, as this might help us to determine which binaries we have that will run on the PDF kernel. Cheers, Warren From jam at magic.com Tue Apr 29 00:15:22 2008 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 07:15:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? Message-ID: <200804281415.HAA18735@mist.magic.com> > On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:53:30AM -0700, James A. Markevitch wrote: > > I have been referring to this as version "1.5" since the date is later > > than the first edition manual, but before the second edition manual. > > Does anyone know if it's truly V1 of the kernel, or something between > > V1 and V2? > > The date on the first page of the memo (PDF) is September 1972. That puts > the memo after 2nd Edition (June 1972) and 3rd Edition (Feb 1973). However, the date at the bottom of each page of the source listing is 3/17/72. My assumption is that the code was from that date, but that the author of the memo spent a few months writing up the text that goes along with it. That's why I've been assuming that it was code somewhere between Version 1 and Version 2. > I have a photocopy of the 2nd Edition manuals from Norman Wilson; I will > scan them in as a bunch of tiffs. If possible, can you scan them at 400dpi or 600dpi? Those are much more amenable to OCR than 300dpi. Alternatively, if you can send me a hardcopy, I will scan it at 600dpi and pass it along to bitsavers. > I'm assuming that some of you are keen to see it running. It's going to > take a lot of work, especially on the debugging side. I have already noticed quite a few errors in the listing, so it's not clear that the PDF was something that actually ran, or whether it had been re-typed by somebody. So far, many of the errors I have found are in the "cold" portion of it, so it may be that the "warm" code will run properly. James Markevitch From newsham at lava.net Tue Apr 29 02:52:16 2008 From: newsham at lava.net (Tim Newsham) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 06:52:16 -1000 (HST) Subject: [TUHS] Whence 1st Edition Unix Kernel Assembly? In-Reply-To: <20080428104853.GB72917@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <200804241753.KAA02899@mist.magic.com> <20080428104853.GB72917@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: > The date on the first page of the memo (PDF) is September 1972. That puts > the memo after 2nd Edition (June 1972) and 3rd Edition (Feb 1973). The cover sheet says sept 14, 1972, an invitation to a talk on the internals of unix. The next page, titled "Preliminary Release of UNIX Implementation Documentation", is dated 6/20/72. The actual unix sources contain a header and a footer and the footer states "Issue D Date 3/17/72". So the sources are probably from much earlier in the year. I was reading through a lot of the 1e manuals that are online (on dmr's page). Much of what is said there lines up with the sources. For example, it mentions that core files are 8kbyte of memory plus a few more bytes for process state. The kernel sources write out this amount of memory on core dump. The notes from dmr mention that the machine is a PDP-11/20 with 24kbyte of memory and the memory layout in u0 reserves 16kbyte for kernel memory and 8kbyte for user memory. One possible deviation is that the tty0(IV) man page says there are six devices, but the u0 srcs sets ntty to 8+1 (I'm assuming the +1 is for the console tty). DMR's comments hints that they will be omving to the PDP-11/45 soon after 1ed: "By this time we knew about the upcoming PDP-11/45, and had visited Digital in Maynard to talk about it; in particular, we had the specs for the floating-point instructions it supported. So the system described here included a simulator for the instructions (fptrap(III))." But it appears the kernel code we have is still just for a 24kbyte machine (I'm assuming they would have gotten more memory when they got a new machine?). Anyway, I'm far from an expert on old PDP's or old UNIX's, but my gut feeling so far is that this is pretty close to what is described in the 1ed manuals that are online. > I'm assuming that some of you are keen to see it running. It's going to > take a lot of work, especially on the debugging side. The existing 1972 > binaries are already executable using my Apout emulator, so that will > help in two ways: we can run the old assembler, and we can tell if a bug > was in a userland binary and not in the kernel. Ahh! I wasn't aware of that! Excellent. I would definitely like to play with it some. So far I've been using the 7e assembler to validate that the code is in compilable condition to help weed out typos. The only gotcha I came across so far was that the system calls arent defined by the assembler (so I whipped up a corresponding sys.s based on u1.s). Building the real kernel with the real 1e assembler will give me a lot more confidence that the assembler phase isn't causing any problems. > If I get a chance, I should try to compare the 1e and 2e manuals, to > outline the kernel API differences, as this might help us to determine > which binaries we have that will run on the PDF kernel. That would be excellent. > Cheers, > Warren Tim Newsham http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/ From wkt at tuhs.org Tue Apr 29 08:38:59 2008 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:38:59 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] New mailing list for Unix 1972 effort Message-ID: <20080428223859.GA3698@minnie.tuhs.org> All, I've just created a mailing list for the people involved in the effort to reconstruct the Unix kernel from the 1972 assembly listing. I thought it would be good to keep the mundane details of the work separate from the TUHS mailing list. The new list is unix-jun72 at tuhs.org I've manually subscribed the e-mail addresses that seem to be interested in the work. If you want to be removed from the new list, e-mail me. If you want to subscribe to the list, you can go here to do that: https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/unix-jun72 Cheers, Warren From angus at fairhaven.za.net Wed Apr 30 00:15:54 2008 From: angus at fairhaven.za.net (Angus Robinson) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:15:54 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] New mailing list for Unix 1972 effort In-Reply-To: <20080428223859.GA3698@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20080428223859.GA3698@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <48172D9A.1080302@fairhaven.za.net> Would anybody mind if i subscribe to the list, i am interested in how its all coming about ? Warren Toomey wrote: > All, I've just created a mailing list for the people involved in the effort > to reconstruct the Unix kernel from the 1972 assembly listing. I thought > it would be good to keep the mundane details of the work separate from the > TUHS mailing list. > > The new list is unix-jun72 at tuhs.org > > I've manually subscribed the e-mail addresses that seem to be interested > in the work. If you want to be removed from the new list, e-mail me. If > you want to subscribe to the list, you can go here to do that: > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/unix-jun72 > > Cheers, > Warren > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs > From asbesto at freaknet.org Wed Apr 30 18:52:15 2008 From: asbesto at freaknet.org (asbesto) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 10:52:15 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] New mailing list for Unix 1972 effort In-Reply-To: <48172D9A.1080302@fairhaven.za.net> References: <20080428223859.GA3698@minnie.tuhs.org> <48172D9A.1080302@fairhaven.za.net> Message-ID: <20080430085214.GC6236@freaknet.org> Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 04:15:54PM +0200, Angus Robinson wrote: > Would anybody mind if i subscribe to the list, i am interested in how > its all coming about ? me too, just to lurk :) -- [ 73 de IW9HGS : freaknet medialab : radiocybernet : poetry hacklab] [ http://freaknet.org/asbesto - http://papuasia.org/radiocybernet ] [ NON SCRIVERMI USANDO LETTERE ACCENTATE! - NON MANDARMI ALLEGATI ] [ *I DELETE* EMAIL > 100K, ATTACHMENTS, HTML, M$-WORD DOC and SPAM ] From wkt at tuhs.org Wed Apr 30 19:33:43 2008 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:33:43 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] New mailing list for Unix 1972 effort In-Reply-To: <20080430085214.GC6236@freaknet.org> References: <20080428223859.GA3698@minnie.tuhs.org> <48172D9A.1080302@fairhaven.za.net> <20080430085214.GC6236@freaknet.org> Message-ID: <20080430093343.GA83559@minnie.tuhs.org> > Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 04:15:54PM +0200, Angus Robinson wrote: > > Would anybody mind if i subscribe to the list, i am interested in how > > its all coming about ? > On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 10:52:15AM +0200, asbesto wrote: > me too, just to lurk :) You're all free to lurk, simply subscribe here: https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/unix-jun72 Cheers, Warren From wkt at tuhs.org Wed Apr 30 21:56:51 2008 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:56:51 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] Query on PDP-11 assembly Message-ID: <20080430115651.GA86539@minnie.tuhs.org> All, I'm trying to write a PDP-11 disassembler for a.out files. I'm having trouble dealing with jsrs. Take, for example, the code here: http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/1972_stuff/s1/frag19.html I can happily deal with the jsr pc,do type of jsr, but the ones involving r5 have me stumped, e.g.: jsr r5,questf; < nonexistent\n\0>; .even It appears that data is being inserted into the executable directly after the jsr instruction. How does the rts which returns from the jsr know how much data to skip, and what is the involvement of r5 here? Thanks, Warren From brantley at coraid.com Wed Apr 30 23:55:13 2008 From: brantley at coraid.com (Brantley Coile) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:55:13 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Query on PDP-11 assembly In-Reply-To: <20080430115651.GA86539@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20080430115651.GA86539@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <48187A41.80105@coraid.com> In your example, -(sp) = r5; r5 = pc; pc = guestf. Guestf will have to bump r5 as in consumes the parameters. Rts r5 means pc = r5; r5 = (sp)+. Hope this helps. Warren Toomey wrote: > All, I'm trying to write a PDP-11 disassembler for a.out files. I'm having > trouble dealing with jsrs. Take, for example, the code here: > http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/1972_stuff/s1/frag19.html > > I can happily deal with the jsr pc,do type of jsr, but the ones > involving r5 have me stumped, e.g.: > > jsr r5,questf; < nonexistent\n\0>; .even > > It appears that data is being inserted into the executable directly > after the jsr instruction. How does the rts which returns from the jsr > know how much data to skip, and what is the involvement of r5 here? > > Thanks, > Warren > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs