FORTH, PASCAL, and C--- which one would you choose (it depends ?)

[Wombat]

In article <1191 at princeton.UUCP> wei at princeton.UUCP (P Wei) writes:
>I compared the Eratosthenes sieve benchmark for Lattice C, Microsoft C,
>TURBO Pascal and HS/Forth for IBMPC...

Benchmarks are not an effective way of judging a language--they serve only
to evaluate a particular *implementation* of a language on a particular
machine.  Additionally, use of runtime benchmarks tends to promulgate the
obsolete notion that "running speed is everything"; in most cases,
"programmer time" is everything.

Now, on to Forth vs. other languages.  What follows is a paraphrasing
of an artticle I wrote a while back...

There are severe problems with Forth that prevent it from being much more than
an interesting (failed) exercise in threaded-interpretative language design.

It is (1) compact, (2) modifiable at runtime, (3) extensible and (4) hard to
read.  Some of these are also features/flaws of other languages, depending on
your viewpoint. However, I'd like to point out the following:

1. Forth is a lot harder to read than even Lisp or APL; at my former employer,
where we used Forth in real-time control and number-crunching applications,
we called it a "write-only" language.

2. There are many incompatible implementations of Forth, and even
implementations from the same vendor behave radically different on
different processors.

3. The debugging support is non-existent.

4. The primitive set of operators is *very* large; and it is not orthogonally
constructed; the names are not even *close* to mnemonic; and many operators
have uncontrollable side effects outside the modules in which they are used.

5. Forth is not structured, typed, or anything like that.  When
using Forth, you may forget anything you learned from Software Tools, or
Elements of Programming Style, or Niklaus Wirth, or, roughly speaking,
the last 15 years of evolution in programming techniques.

And now, I'd like to quote another article that appeared at the time:

> From: libes at nbs-amrf.UUCP
> Newsgroups: net.ai
> Subject: Forth for AI?  NO!
> Date: Sun, 22-Jan-84 19:54:16 EST
> 
> Forth for AI?  Don't make me laugh.  Here's Forth's really bad points: 
> 
> 1) Manipulating programs as data in Forth is difficult.  Also
> impractical, since it has no garbage collection.  You can't expect to
> service high-priority interrupts if you've just run out of space!
> (Forth's primary use is for real-time control.) 
> 
> 2) Can't pass arguments explicitly.  You must pass information by
> putting it on the stack.  Since I pushed the 2nd arg at line 6 and then
> used the stack to do something else, what are the odds that at line 23,
> I can push the 3rd arg on the stack and then call that function with
> confidence?  Reading code, trying to find out what the arguments are, is
> like counting parens in Lisp, except now imagine that every atom in the
> list manipulates the count of ('s and )'s! 
> 
> 3) Forward referencing (including recursion) is not normal and must be
> done by manipulating compiled code.  Bye-bye portability. Indeed, I have
> never seen anyone write a recursive Forth routine (although it can be
> done).  Bye-bye AI. 
> 
> 4) Code is generated as you type (or load) in Forth source.  Hence you
> lose all possible benefits of a good compiler, i.e. type-checking,
> optimization, etc.  As for syntax checking, forget it.  The syntax of
> the language is so simple, almost every combination of Forth words is
> syntactly correct (although meaningless).  If you mistyped that last
> word, you'll find out at run-time. 
> 
> 5) Scoping, name-space rules are terrible.  For example, it is impossible to
> write a subroutine that uses variables that are *guaranteed* to be local.
> (How can you ever be confident about your code?) 
> 
> 6) The emphasis on Forth is on speed at the cost of everything else. For
> example, if you can keep track of all data by storing it on the stack,
> great, but if you have to use a variable (no less a structure) you start
> losing efficiency.  Using a variable in Forth is akin to using those
> features in PL/I that are great but really slow the runtimes down.  And
> Forth simply isn't fast to begin with. Any decent compiler can do better
> (then "threaded-code"). 
> 
> 7) The only messages from the system are "ok", "?" (meaning "I don't
> know that word") and "stack empty".  (It might check stack-full and some
> others, but these are the only msgs I've ever gotten.)  This is very
> consistent with the Forth philosophy (see 6.) but really unhelpful.
> Debugging note: If Forth encounters a word it doesn't know, the stack is
> popped.  Since the only other error is when the stack is empty, it is
> impossible to tell where you died by looking at the stack! 
> 
> 8) I hesitate to criticize any language for being unreadable, since I
> really like APL, which is also unreadable but in a different sense. 
> Forth is like Lisp but without parens.  Its very hard to figure out what
> the functions, args and bindings are without reading the entire
> subroutine from the beginning and knowing type info about every word.
> And even if you do, glancing at a random line that is manipulating the
> stack doesn't tell you at all what is on the stack.  To know this, you
> also have to understand the function of every word. 
> 
> I could go on, but I think you get the idea by now.  (No, not that I
> hate Forth!)  Forth has its good points, but none of them make it a
> practical language; most of them are for intellectual stimulation
> only.  Given a task and my choice of languages, I would never choose
> Forth.  You shouldn't either.
>
> Don Libes

In summary (speaking for myself, not Don), I strongly recommend that you avoid
Forth.  If I were you, I'd resort to using assebly language first; you'll
have a better chance of producing debuggable, robust, and maintainable code.
-- 
Rich Kulawiec pur-ee!rsk purdue-!rsk rsk at purdue-asc.arpa rsk at asc.purdue.edu