UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity
mf12605 at msi-s9.msi.umn.edu
mf12605 at msi-s9.msi.umn.edu
Tue Nov 28 08:27:29 AEST 1989
*** NOTE: this is being posted from my brother's account; please ***
*** respond by mail to NBEHR at ECNCDC.BITNET (Eric Behr) ***
Here is my original question re. hooking up to Internet, followed
by a summary of responses. My deepest thanks to everyone who replied.
> Definition: "useful (Internet) software" means anything which
> would permit file transfers a la ftp, access to news, rlogins,
> equivalent of "talk", as well as other "connectivity" stuff
> found in an average Unix system.
>
> - can an IBM mainframe run "useful software" without much pain? or
> do we need to get connected to a Vax or something similar?
>
> - is VMS handicapped, as far as "useful software" goes, compared
> to Unix? If so, in what way?
>
> - is there any favorite networking method to be used locally?
> everywhere I've been before, Ethernet was the standard; here, a
> "mafia" of sorts is pushing a token ring LAN; any concrete arguments
> against it?
================================================================================
+1 Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1989 11:06
From: Chris Petersen - VUCC <PETERSEN at vuctrvax>
Subject: RE: Internet connectivity...
To: nbehr at ECNCDC.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"nbehr at ecncdc.bitnet"
I can only comment on my experience here at Vanderbilt University, but
this is what I think...
> Definition: "useful (Internet) software" means anything which
> would permit file transfers a la ftp, access to news, rlogins,
> equivalent of "talk", as well as other "connectivity" stuff
> found in an average Unix system.
At Vanderbilt, we are using the TCP/IP package from CMU/Tektronics to
connect to the Internet. We're using PMDF (Pascal Mail Distribution Facility)
from Innosoft to connect VMS Mail to the Internet software. This has not
(to my knowledge) caused any problems to date, and it seems to work quite
well. There are network mailing lists for both of the non-DEC products I
mentioned above.
As far as I can tell, CMU/Tek does not come with a 'talk' substitute. I
had to write one for a networks class (on a Sun), and it wasn't that bad, so
I may write one for VMS sometime soon. CMU/Tek does come with the standard
FTP, Telnet (analogous to rlogin), SMTP (simple mail transfer protocol), and
I think finger. You can get ANU-News (by Geoff Huston) for free across the
network if you want to store news locally (Geoff is at Australian National U.)
or a package from (I think) RPI which will allow you to NNTP to a convenient
server.
In short, there is quite a bit of software out there if you look for it
(and some of it is even free!).
> - can an IBM mainframe run "useful software" without much pain? or
> do we need to get connected to a Vax or something similar?
I really don't know the answer to that...
> - is VMS handicapped, as far as "useful software" goes, compared
> to Unix? If so, in what way?
Yes and no. UNIX (some UNIXes, I guess) come with definitions for sockets
and such like which are not built into the VAX definitions... This makes
programming Internet stuff on UNIX a little easier, but for the knowledgable,
VMS should be almost as good.
> - is there any favorite networking method to be used locally?
> everywhere I've been before, Ethernet was the standard; here, a
> "mafia" of sorts is pushing a token ring LAN; any concrete arguments
> against it?
Personally, I would go with a TCP/IP-based Ethernet. This would allow
you to put everything on the Internet almost directly (gateway from WAN to
LAN would be in the VAX, I suppose) and with only a single protocol. That
is if you are starting now. If you already have LANs in place, you might
want to think about bridging them and then considering how to get them
access to the big network...
-Chris Petersen
Vanderbilt University Computer Center
Petersen at ctrvax.Vanderbilt.EDU
Petersen at vuctrvx1.Bitnet
Disclaimer: These are not necessarily the views of my employer, nor do I
guarantee them to be in any way factual. They are opinions and should,
therefore, be taken with a large grain of salt.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From mark at asngat.asn.net Fri Nov 10 11:03:16 1989
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Date: 10 Nov 89 10:59:00 CST
From: "Mark Preston" <mark at asngat.asn.net>
Subject: RE: UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity
To: "msi-s9.msi.umn.edu!mf12605" <msi-s9.msi.umn.edu!mf12605 at umn-cs.cs.umn.edu>
For the VAX running VMS you will need to get TCP/IP
from a third party. DEC can get you information on these companies
since they have a marketing agreements with them. One
is Wollongong and the other is FUSION. Both have advantages/disadvantages
, you will have to look at them and pick which best suits your
needs. We run Wollongong's. It includes telnet, ftp, smtp, tftp,
named, finger, rlogin, and other protocols that we have disabled.
The VAX does not support token ring, unless you find something
from a third party vendor. The problem with Token ring is that
the machine still has to forward the packet even if it is
the machines must forward all packets that are not targeted to
itself. That takes cpu cycles away. In a LAN it grabes the
packed that is address to it only. All other packet are ignored.
That is just the basics, the are other advantages/disadvantes
like you ring may die completely if one node in the ring
drops out.
Mark.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1989 16:42
From: <davy at itstd.sri.com>
Subject: internet
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 89 14:04:26 PST
From: davy at itstd.sri.com
Call IBM. Assuming your running VM/CMS (and maybe by now even MVS),
they have a TCP/IP product. It actually works pretty well; we
used it when I was at Purdue. Telnet and FTP are there, and
mail works.
--Dave
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1989 18:18
From: "Mark H. Wood" <IMHW400 at INDYVAX.BITNET>
Subject: Re: UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity
Received: From <MAILER at INDYVAX> for <NBEHR at ECNCDC>
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 89 15:18 EST
From: "Mark H. Wood" <IMHW400 at INDYVAX.BITNET>
Subject: Re: UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity
To: NBEHR at ECNCDC.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"NBEHR at ECNCDC"
>- can an IBM mainframe run "useful software" without much pain? or
>do we need to get connected to a Vax or something similar?
I don't handle the IBM gear here, but our 4381s run Telnet, SMTP, and FTP
fairly well and give domain name service. The nameserver seems to require a
database (we use SQL/DS). There was some trouble getting it set up but we are
all still new to the IP world here. I don't know whether there is a newsreader
for it and I don't know for sure what "talk" is.
I'd think that you would want all of your machines on the network, but of
course I don't know your situation. Most VMS IP packages offer Telnet, FTP,
TFTP, rlogin etc, FINGER, PING, and SMTP. More and more also have an NFS
option. There are public-domain packages such as ANU News to fill the gaps.
If you expect much traffic at all, you might want to get a separate box just
for routing. We connect to Internet via a cisco AGS on our Ethernet.
>- is VMS handicapped, as far as "useful software" goes, compared
>to Unix? If so, in what way?
Not really; see above. One thing you didn't mention is lpr, which is kind of
rare among VMS IPs but catching on fast.
>- is there any favorite networking method to be used locally?
We have thick, thin, twisted-pair, and broadband Ethernet at various places
around the campus. We are now trying to nail a token ring onto the network but
Ethernet is the backbone. I personally object to T-R for several reasons:
o the Ethernet cable plant is very simple and rugged; the T-R cable plant
includes MAUs, which are complex active devices usually located in
stuffy closets and requiring power supplies of their own (I think).
Ethernet just seems much less fragile, to me.
o T-R seems to require central administration and control; Ethernet
allows this but doesn't enforce it.
o There is still no way to fit it to my BI-bus VAX.
o Ethernet campaigns on its record, but T-R seems to advance itself
mainly through mudslinging, IMHO.
o I'm biased against anything pushed by IBM. :-P
Good luck! You're embarked on an interesting project.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Mark H. Wood IMHW400 at INDYVAX.BITNET (317)274-0749 III U U PPPP U U III
Indiana University - Purdue University at Indianapolis I U U P P U U I
799 West Michigan Street, ET 1023 I U U PPPP U U I
Indianapolis, IN 46202 USA I U U P U U I
[@disclaimer@] III UUU P UUU III
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1989 10:08
From: "Karsten Nyblad, TFL" <KARSTEN at tfl.dk>
Subject: RE: UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity
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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 89 17:00 +0100
From: "Karsten Nyblad, TFL" <KARSTEN at tfl.dk>
Subject: RE: UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity
To: NBEHR at ECNCDC.BITNET
X-Vms-To: in%"NBEHR at ECNCDC.BITNET"
Dear Eric,
Here are some answers on on your posting to the info-vax mailing list.
I have attached a list of common domain software for VMS to the mail.
There are several vendors selling TCP/IP for VMS. I think
the most videly used news program is ANU-NEWS (see the
attached list of programs).
Digital sells VMS ULTRIX connection. This lacks most
commands like the rcommands (rlogin,rsh,...) The version
1.2 does not even include SMTP, i.e., the internet mail
protocol. It can only communicated through ethernet.
Digital has plans for implementing a full set of
commands, but they can't deliver now.
CMU-TEK TCP/IP (see attached address). It contains the
basic TCP/IP commands (telnet,ftp,smtp,...) It contains
support for remote printing, i.e., other computers
printing on the VAX/VMS's printers, and the VAX/VMS
printing on other computers printers. Advange: it is
cheap.
Wollongong. They have got a full TCP/IP, including
support for ethernet and synchronious lines. There
user interface is UNIX like. Address:
The Wollongong Group, Inc.
1129 San Antonio Road
Palo Alto, Ca 94303
(415) 962-7100
Novell/excelan. I do not know much about them, but they
might have what you want. Novell/excelan is a merge of
Novell, which is one of the largest PC LAN vendors, and
Excelan, which have god implementations of TCP/IP.
Multinet. I know notthing but the name.
You should give the last three a try.
There as you see several vendors providing TCP/IP, so you
can't say VMS is handicapped with respect to TCP/IP, if that
is what you call usefull software. TCP/IP is the
network protocols implementing networking on UNIX. However,
DECNET is to VAX/VMS what TCP/IP is to UNIX. There is not
as much god common domain software available for VMS as for
UNIX.
The advantage of using ethernet is that a lot of protocols
can coexist on the same network. That means that you can
use the protocol you fill is best suited for a given task.
That is an advantage if you connect machines from different
vendors. On our ethernet we use TCP/IP for communication
between VMS, MS-DOS and UNIX, DECnet between VMS and UNIX,
and a MicroSOFT protocol sold under the name PCSA by Digital
for MS-DOS <-> VMS communication. I guess IBM will claim
that token ring is the best with respect to performance, and
the (many) vendors of ethernet, that ethernet is the best.
By the way, can you connect a VAX/VMS to a token ring
network? Novell has god networking software for PCs. There
software works best on ethernet, and I think they have a
larger market share than IBM... When buying networking
software for PCs you should look for software, that can be
removed from the main storage of the PC, since many programs
common in university world needs all 640k of storage.
Karsten Nyblad
TFL, A Danish Telecommmunication Research Laboratory
E-mail: karsten at tfl.dk
>I keep reading about the CMU-TEK TCP/IP package. The impression I get is that
>it is either free- or cheapware. We would like to evaluate it, but don't know
>how to get the package. Could some kind soul provide details, either to me or
>to the 'net?
It's cheapware and worth more than it costs. Contact:
Lynne.Stonis at VM.CC.CMU.EDU or
Carnegie Mellon University
CMU-TEK Software
4910 Forbes Avenue
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3890
Attention Lynne Stonis
Costs:
Media, documentation and US mail !125.00
TK50s Add ! 25.00
Purchase orders Add ! 25.00
International orders Add ! 50.00
Note that support for the package is limited. There is a mailing list
for the package. Send postings to CMU-TEK-TCP at CS.CMU.EDU and administrivia
to CMU-TEK-TCP-REQUEST at CS.CMU.EDU.
*******************************************************************************
The VAX Programs List
(last updated: 20 July, 1989)
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ANU NEWS A news program for VMS. For the usenet system of news msgs.
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NNTP_NEWS nntp newsreader for VMS. See also ANU NEWS.
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SPELL Spelling checker (source in Pascal, exe in Decus TEX).
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SUM (Show Users More). Like DCL Show Users, but with addition
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SWING A wonderful screen-oriented directory and file maintenance
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UAF Searches through SYSUAF.DAT for users that match certain
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UNSDL Utility to aid in creation of include files from system
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UUCP Unix file data transfer utility for VMS. Includes ANU News.
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VACATION Program to periodically check for incoming mail messages
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. . .
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VERB Inverse of VMS's SET COMMAND.
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WATCHER Configurable idle-job killer. Knows about LAT.
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WILD Wildcard (i.e., with * and %) version of DCL SEARCH.
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XMODEM File transfer program with checksums and error correction.
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E2
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D1 Spring 89 VAX SIG tape
E1 KARNEY%PPC.MFENET at NMFECC.LLNL.GOV Charles Karney
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F23 USC.EDU
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250 W. First St., Suite 240
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M3
M4 c/o Simpact Associates
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(619) 565 1865 (x1116)
jeh at crash.cts.com Jamie Hanrahan
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( . )
( 5 )
S9 (?PACKAGE*UNMACRO) NETSERVER at VAXMFG.TECH.NWU.EDU
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.
( 7_OF_7)
(SEND BECOME.1_OF_1)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1989 17:07
From: CARL FUSSELL <CARL at SCU.BITNET>
Subject: RE: Internet
Received: From <CARL at SCU> for <NBEHR at ECNCDC>
via RSCS by ECNCDC; Sat, 11 Nov 1989 17:07 CST
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 89 15:06 PST
From: CARL FUSSELL <CARL at SCU.BITNET>
Subject: RE: Internet
To: NBEHR at ECNCDC.BITNET
[...]
We are currently comparing several different methods for both T-1 and 56KB
links. We feel that the optimal is with a Proteon box attached to our
ethernet (though Cisco sells a less expensive internet box I have been
told -- will be calling them this week). Some internal constraints may
cause us to use an interim solution for a year where we will use an
existing VAX 750 Ultrix system as the router (or our 8650 VMS system a la
Wollongong software)... haven't decided yet.
Anyway, any comments you collect would be much appreciated.
Thanx.
Carl
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1989 18:44
From: "Leo Geoffrion, Skidmore College" <LDG at AMY.SKIDMORE.EDU>
Subject: TCP/IP and VMS
Received: From <LDG at SKIDMORE> for <NBEHR at ECNCDC>
via RSCS by ECNCDC; Sat, 11 Nov 1989 18:44 CST
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 89 19:43 EST
From: "Leo Geoffrion, Skidmore College" <LDG at AMY.SKIDMORE.EDU>
Subject: TCP/IP and VMS
To: nbehr at ECNCDC.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"nbehr at ecncdc.bitnet"
In response to your posting about Internet for the VAX/VMS world...
We use the CMU TCP/IP software, distributed by Carnegie Mellon.
($150). For its price, it's unbeatable. works well, although the
documentation is pretty weak.
the only component that we omit is their mailer. We prefer to use
PMDF (Pascal Mail Delivery Facility) which interfaces to VMS MAIL much
more cleanly that CMU's original product.
I can probably dig up some addresses if you want them.
Leo Geoffrion
Skidmore College Computer Center.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
+2 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1989 19:02
From: "James A. Harvey" <IJAH400 at INDYVAX>
Subject: UNIX vs. VMS interconnectivity
Received: From <IJAH400 at INDYVAX> for <NBEHR at ECNCDC>
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 89 16:30 EST
From: "James A. Harvey" <IJAH400 at INDYVAX>
Subject: UNIX vs. VMS interconnectivity
To: NBEHR at ECNCDC
Original_To: JNET%"NBEHR at ECNCDC"
Eric:
I'll try to answer your questions. We've been on the Internet (via Indiana
University) since May.
>- can an IBM mainframe run "useful software" without much pain? or
>do we need to get connected to a Vax or something similar?
Yes. IBM sells a TCP/IP product for VM/SP (5798-FAL) and MVS (5685-061).
For more information ask your IBM sales rep. Other companies also have
implementations for IBM mainframes. There is a document that can be obtained
from NIC.DDN.MIL that lists vendors of TCP/IP related software and hardware
for different systems. Have someone that you know who has Internet access
connect to NIC.DDN.MIL using FTP (10.0.0.51 or 26.0.0.73), login as user
ANONYMOUS, with password as their "real" address (user at domain). Connect to
the directory NETINFO: and get the document named VENDORS-GUIDE.DOC. It's
kind of large (670 Kbytes). If you can't get anyone to get it for you, I
can split it into three parts and send it to you by BITNET. This is just
vendors that sent stuff to the NIC though, there's a lot of other stuff on
the market too.
>- is VMS handicapped, as far as "useful software" goes, compared
>to Unix? If so, in what way?
Not really. It depends what you mean by "useful software." Generally,
each implementation gives you a client AND server for FTP (remote file
transfer), TELNET (remote interactive login), and SMTP (mail, and some
kind of interface to the local mail system). Most NFS (transparent access
to files on a remote) implementations for IBM/VM and VAX/VMS are server-only
(i.e., U*IX boxes can use the IBM and VAX systems as file servers, but
not the other way around). The IBM implementation has an REXEC server.
Most VMS implementations I am aware of (Wollongong, Fusion, and Multinet)
were ported from the BSD 4.3 distribution and include rlogin, rsh, and rexec
clients, but not servers. A lot of sysadmins (me included) consider these
to be security holes anyway (people having files full of passwords around),
and don't encourage their use (just use telnet). News is nice, but the only
implementations for VMS of which I'm aware are public domain (there are
NEWS packages for VMS available from DECUS, the DEC User's Society).
Here on the VMS system I use we run the Wollongong software. We're not
using their NFS yet, so I can't say much about that. If you are going to
handle a lot of TELNET logins on VMS, make sure the TELNET server is a
kernel implementation (the Wollongong and Multinet implementations are,
and I think Fusion is soon to be or already is). Most of the public domain
TCP/IPs for VMS aren't (e.g., the CMU stuff). Even so, a large number of
TELNET logins on a VAX can present a considerable amount of overhead.
For example, on the 8820s at I.U Bloomington, 100 or so TELNET sessions can
use up about 1/5 of the CPU just in TELNET overhead. This is because of
the character-at-a-time nature of terminal support on the VAX; you can
get 1 packet for each character input. On an IBM it isn't so bad, since
if the client TELNET on the remote host can emulate a 3270 terminal (a block
mode device), the IBM host only has to send a few packets for each new
screen.
>- is there any favorite networking method to be used locally?
>everywhere I've been before, Ethernet was the standard; here, a
>"mafia" of sorts is pushing a token ring LAN; any concrete arguments
>against it?
Good luck finding a token-ring interface for a VAX. What is usually done
is one has individual subnetted LANs that are one or the other, connected
with IP gateways (ISO level-3 routers). Usually these are separate boxes,
because in general one doesn't want to use timesharing hosts to do routing.
Some routers can also act as level-2/MAC (media access control) bridges
for other Ethernet protocols (for example, LAT). A router is generally
slower than a bridge, although the newer ones are approching the packet
transfer rates achievable by bridges. For example, I think DEC bridges
are rated near 15000 packets/second (the theoretical maximum rate for a
10Mbps Ethernet), and the Cisco gateway servers we use here are rated at
12000 packets/second for routing or bridging. Of course, routers are more
expensive. Another performance measurement that isn't always mentioned
but that one has to consider in some situations is packet latency time,
not just the raw throughput rate, but how long it takes to route a particular
packet from one interface to another.
As far as which to use for a particular LAN, there are advantages and
disadvantages to both. Token-ring is deterministic, whereas Ethernet is
not. This simply means that a token-ring node is guaranteed to be able
to get access to the media to send a packet in a deterministic amount
of time, whereas there is no such guarantee on an Ethernet. Ethernet
can make fuller use of the network bandwidth at low loads, but degrades
because of collisions at high loads, where in a token ring each node
would still be getting it's guaranteed "share" of the bandwidth (this
is what is meant by "deterministic" media access). Ethernet is supported
by more vendors, although that is becoming less of an issue these days.
It is possible to tap undetected into an Ethernet and watch all the
network traffic; token-ring is more secure in this respect. Finally,
token-ring has the potential for higher raw network bandwidth.
Some articles (and some people!) treat this more like a religious issue
than anything else. In practice, you choose it depending on the media
access control best supported by the particular systems you are connecting.
Generally this means Ethernet for DEC products and UNIX boxes and token-ring
for IBM, and either for micro LANs. Specialized high-speed networks (e.g.,
a campus-wide fiber backbone) typically use some type of token ring.
There are a couple of good articles by Charles L. Hedrick of Rutgers University
on the administration of and introduction to TCP/IP networks that I have
machine readable copies of that I could send you over BITNET if you like.
For more information on routers and bridges there are a couple of good
articles in IEEE Network, January 1988, Vol. 2, No. 1, "Bridges and Routers",
by William M. Seifert
(pp 57-64), and "Integrating Bridges and Routers in
a Large Internetwork" by Eric Benhamou (pp 65-71).
I hope this helps. If you want any of the machine-readable stuff I have
let me know, and where to send it (BITNET?) and what format you want it
in (punch, netdata, vmsdump, etc.). Good luck.
- Jim Harvey, Senior Analyst/Programmer, IUPUI Computing Svcs. (DEC Systems)
Internet: ijah400 at indyvax.iupui.edu UUCP: ...{uunet, ?}!iuvax!ivax!ijah400
BITNET: ijah400 at indyvax AT&T: (317) 274-0747 Disclaimer:
Opinions expressed here are my own and not necessarily those of my employer.
P.S.: And don't be embarrased about asking questions. I was scratching my
head over all this about a year ago too, and all I have to support is the
software end of it...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
+3 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1989 19:14
From: Aaron Leonard at UofA Telecommunications <LEONARD at telcom.arizona.e
du>
Subject: Re: UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity
Received: From <LEONARD at ARIZONA> for <NBEHR at ECNCDC>
via RSCS by ECNCDC; Mon, 13 Nov 1989 19:14 CST
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 89 15:32 MST
From: Aaron Leonard at UofA Telecommunications <LEONARD at telcom.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity
To: nbehr at ECNCDC.BITNET
Message-id: <244C3F3843DFA00131 at telcom.arizona.edu>
X-Envelope-to: nbehr at ECNCDC.BITNET
X-VMS-To: in%"nbehr at ecncdc.bitnet"
Marek -
Some random opinions ... (particularly biased opinions are flagged by:
"(***BIAS***)":
We (Univ of Arizona) are a site that has some of about everything:
Internet connects, Bitnet connects, DECnet connects. We have IBMs running
MVS and VM, VAXen running VMS, and lots of stuff running Unix.
>can an IBM mainframe run "useful software" without much pain? or
>do we need to get connected to a Vax or something similar?
Hm. Well, in general, (***BIAS***) IBMs CAN'T run "useful software"
without much pain, because IBM mainframes are inherently painful.
Actually, there are many ways to network IBMs to the rest of the world.
Here are 2 techniques we employ:
1. RSCS. This is an old, batch-oriented network protocol for IBMs. (It's
what Bitnet talks.) Its main advantage is that it's cheap (all you need
is slow synchronous [or "bisync"] serial lines, and it comes built into
IBMs.) Its main disadvantages are that it's slow, and that it doesn't
support remote logins. (It is good for mail, for file transfers, and for
remote job entry functions such as batch job and print submissions.)
The RSCS implementation that we use for VMS is Jnet, from a company called
Joiner Associates. It's a very well made and well supported product. You
should be able to get RSCS for Unix from somebody, but I don't know who.)
2. TCP/IP. We have our VM mainframe hooked up to our Ethernet via a box
called a "DACU". It's running TCP/IP from IBM. We have most all of our
Unix systems and VAXen talking TCP/IP as well, so this gives us lots of
functionality. This supports FTP, TELNET(*), and SMTP. It seems to be
fast and pretty reliable, except that the "DACU" flakes out about every 6
months or so. We don't have a TCP/IP into our MVS 3090, as that costs an
arm and a leg. (*) Note on TELNET to/from an IBM mainframe: IBM terminals
are very weird compared to everybody else's. So that claim that TELNET
"works" should be taken with a grain of salt. In general, your TELNET
client side (non-IBM host) should be able to run TN3270.
OK, on to the next question:
>is VMS handicapped, as far as "useful software" goes, compared
>to Unix? If so, in what way?
The only way in which VMS is "handicapped" vs. Unix is this: if you're
running VMS, you must pay extra to get your networking software (and
choose the right software wisely!), while with Unix, (***BIAS***) you get
broken software for no additional charge.
In fact, we have standardized on VMS to run our campus network gateways,
because of its superior reliability and connectivity.
(***BIAS***) If you are running TCP/IP on VMS, there is ONLY ONE GOOD
CHOICE! Repeat: THERE IS ONLY ONE GOOD CHOICE. This is MultiNet from
TGV.COM (marketing information: Desiree Champagne
<desiree at warbucks.ai.sri.com>). MultiNet is the best implementation of
TCP/IP commercially available - including any BSD implementation. If you
buy any other TCP/IP for VMS, (***BIAS***) you WILL be sorry.
>is there any favorite networking method to be used locally?
>everywhere I've been before, Ethernet was the standard; here, a
>"mafia" of sorts is pushing a token ring LAN; any concrete arguments
>against it?
Yup - our favorite networking method is TCP/IP over Ethernet. This is
because:
1. Ethernet works.
2. Ethernet is pretty fast.
3. Ethernet is pretty cheap.
4. (Almost) everything talks Ethernet.
5. (Almost) everything talks TCP/IP.
6. TCP/IP has lots of functionality.
7. The whole (academic world) speaks TCP/IP.
(***BIAS***) anyone who "is pushing a token ring LAN" is obviously a
brain-dead IBM weenie. I won't offer any concrete arguments against an
IBM token ring because such people typically won't listen to reason.
Rotsa ruck,
Aaron
Aaron Leonard (AL104) | leonard at arizona.edu /
U of Ariz Telecom | LEONARD at ARIZONA.BITNET
Tucson AZ 85721 | 47540::TELCOM::LEONARD
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1989 8:23
From: <gjc at bu-it.BU.EDU>
Subject: VMS connects
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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 89 07:39:42 EST
From: gjc at bu-it.BU.EDU
Message-Id: <8911201239.AA25326 at buit4.bu.edu>
To: NBEHR at ECNCDC.BITNET
Subject: VMS connects
The issue of VMS connectivity vs Unix was *always* one of *price*,
not *performance*. However, the *price* difference has now gone away
with two packages, both of which are being used extensively:
* CMU TCP-IP. Costs $150 to get the tape. A full TCP-IP implementation.
* DECUS UUCP. Also cheap from DECUS.
The main limitation of the CMU package is the mailer. People I know
tend to combine it with PMDF from Innosoft, especially when they have
more than one transport protocol like DECUS UUCP on the same machine.
Obviously you get full sources with both packages. I know of one site
using CMU-TCP (pfcvax.pfc.mit.edu) where they seem to have to forward
domain-style addresses which do not have internet addresses because of
a lack of MX record support for mailing outgoing. There is a NAMSRV
process however that does domain lookup for internet addresses, so it
should not be a big deal to get the mailer to look up MX records too.
There is an internet mailing list out of @CMU.EDU for system managers
using the package. Bug reporting, hints, problem resolution, the
usual thing.
Then of course there are many commercial packages for TCP-IP and UUCP
under VMS from various suppliers.
Multinet available from SRI is the most attractive of the commercial
packages in my opinion.
-gjc
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[more correspondence with gjc]
+4 Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1989 23:27
From: <gjc%mitech.com at harvunxw.BITNET>
Subject: vms connections
X-Vms-Mail-To: UUCP%"nbehr at ecncdc.bitnet"
you are welcome. This message being sent with DECUS UUCP by the way.
Now, you have a IBM machine, have you looked at the DECNET/SNA connectivity
stuff from DIGITAL? Not cheap at something like $50k, but of course IBM
mainframes are not cheap either. The reason I ask is that Boston University
has a big IBM mainframe also, and lack of connectivity has always been
a big problem for that machine. They never did get TCP running correctly.
Of course they have their own one-of-a-kind-in-the-world home-brew OS
called VPS running on it under VM. So that doesnt help.
-gjc
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1989 18:27
From: (William Clare Stewart) <wcs at ho95c.att.com>
Subject: Re: UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity
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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 89 15:39:11 EST
From: wcs at ho95c.att.com (William Clare Stewart)
To: mf12605 at msi-s9.msi.umn.edu NBEHR at ECNCDC.BITNET
Subject: Re: UNIX vs. VMS Internet connectivity
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.protocols.tcp-ip,comp.unix.questions
In-Reply-To: <16881 at umn-cs.CS.UMN.EDU>
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs
I've done a little bit of this, but not much.
As you might guess, VMS is pretty foreign to us here, something that
would only be used by number-crunching types who LIKE fortran :-).
But on one of our projects, we were dealing with a company that did
fancy satellite image number crunching on VMS, and we were working
with HP Series 9000 Unix machines to do graphics animation.
The right way to do the job is to get real TCP/IP for teh VAX (some
university-ware packages are out there, as well as commercial from
Wollongong etc.), but we didn't have the VMS expertise to do that.
HP has a software package called "Network Services" = NS/VAX,
NS/9000, etc, which give you file transfer and I think remote login
capabilities. We set up some scripts on each machine to put the
files in some well-defined locations and haul tehm across using HP's
substitute for RCP (which also took care of record-length,
byte-swapping, etc.) Boring stuff, but pretty simple to do.
]- can an IBM mainframe run "useful software" without much pain? or
]do we need to get connected to a Vax or something similar?
]- is VMS handicapped, as far as "useful software" goes, compared
]to Unix? If so, in what way?
Both systems can support TCP/IP and Ethernets.
You tend to need third-party equipment, especially for IBM
mainframes, but it exists; VAXes can eitehr use DEC or
3rd-party (the latter is cheaper.) The basic problem is
that both vendors have their own favorite lock-you-in
networking software, and support isn't always the best for
standards. DEC is a bit better, since DECnet Phase 5 is
supposedly OSI-based, but there isn't a lot of OSI stuff for
it to talk to.
]- is there any favorite networking method to be used locally?
]everywhere I've been before, Ethernet was the standard; here, a
]"mafia" of sorts is pushing a token ring LAN; any concrete arguments
]against it?
Token rings are EVIL! (If you've read "The Hobbit", by
J.R.R. Token, you know that the Ring makes you invisible but
warps your spirit and lets the Evil Empire now where you are :-)
If you use them, you're LOCKED IN! It may not support your
VAX, and you'll be forced to use crufty protocols which you
won't be able to keep up-to-date without constantly buying
the latest stuff from IBM.
Ethernets come in several electrical flavors (thin-wire,
thick-wire, and twisted-pair), and it's easy to get
electrical conversion betwwen them, and to get Ethernet
boards for any kind of equipment you have - IBM, DEC, Sun,
PCs, Macs, AT&T 3B2s, RISC boxes, and everyone supports TCP/IP
in some fashion, though they don't all like to admit it.
You can also get terminal server boxes to provide access to
the machines, which is generally cheaper than IBM
front-end-processors and lets you use dumb ASCII terminals
instead of 3270.
---
# Bill Stewart, AT&T Bell Labs 4M312 Holmdel NJ 201-949-0705 api.att.com!wcs
#We did it for the formlessness ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
+4 Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1989 14:51
From: RANDY MARCHANY <MARCHANYRC at VTCC1>
Subject: unix - vms internet connectivity
Received: From <MARCHANY at VTCC1> for <NBEHR at ECNCDC>
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 89 14:17 EST
From: RANDY MARCHANY <MARCHANYRC at VTCC1>
Subject: unix - vms internet connectivity
To: nbehr at ecncdc
Original_To: BITNET%"nbehr at ecncdc"
Original_cc: MARCHANYRC
Hi, here at VA Tech, we have IBM 3090 and 3084 running VM, a VAX 8800
running VMS and countless workstations running VMS or Ultrix. All of these
systems are connected on an ethernet. The VMS systems run Wollongong's
WIN/TCP TCP/IP software package, the IBM VM systems run a TCP/IP package
developed by IBM and the Ultrix systems use the standard TCP/IP package
that comes with the system. We have been using this setup for over 2 years
with very little problems. Our Computing Center (where the IBM's and the 8800
are located) site is 2 miles from campus. I believe we use a Token ring
bridge to connect the Center's Ethernet to the the campus ethernet backbone.
All of the TCP/IP packages mentioned provide TELNET, FTP, SMTP support (in
fact, I'm on an Ultrix workstation telnetted to the VMS machine to send
you this note). If you need more specific info, drop me a note. My address
is:
Randy Marchany
VA Tech Computing Center
1700 Pratt Dr.
Blacksburg, VA 24061-0214
703-231-9523
Bitnet: MARCHANYRC at VTCC1
Hope this helps you out.
-Randy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, thanks to all respondents. Please follow up by mail to NBEHR at ECNCDC;
I can't access newsgroups easily. Eric Behr
| Marek Behr | mf12605 at uc.msc.umn.edu (internet) |
| University of Minnesota | AE01005 at UMNACVX (BITNET) |
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