re: long vs. short identifiers; it seems to me that with a bit of judiciousness, one can have it both ways: instead of doggoneid1 being confused with doggoneid2 in a truncating compiler, if you declare them like this: 1doggoneid and 2doggoneid, ie, make the unique part first instead of last, then you have portable long ids. see any holes kids? ernie harkins