Workstation pricing, Sun vs. ISA

[Larry Wake]

In article <1989Aug30.204441.3294 at algor2.algorists.com> jeffrey at algor2.UUCP
(Jeffrey Kegler) attempts to compare apples... er, attempts to price
compare a Sun 386i vs. a generic 386 box.

First off, as Mr. Kegler himself states, using the 386i as a comparision
box for a UNIX-only environment is less than fair.  He asks:

>As I understand it, the 386i will not boot
>DOS, and so one wonders why bother with an 80386?

It won't boot DOS as its native-mode operating system (using the term
loosely), but it will boot DOS under UNIX and run DOS applications
(lots of them, at the same time) without the overhead of emulating an
Intel CPU on a foreign architecture.  If you don't need this, you
probably shouldn't get a 386i.  If you do need it, you should add the
cost of a DOS/UNIX environment to your generic system's price list.  It
should be fully integrated with your windowing system (X, in the system
you outlined), to be fairly compared to the 386i.

>A major advantage
>of the ISA architecture is a ready resale market to power hungry DOS
>users

Yes, but what are they going to do with the other stuff you bought,
that doesn't really work too well under DOS?  The resale value of a Sun
should not be underestimated -- that is, if you sell it to someone who
wants a Sun, and not just a fast DOS box.  If they want a DOS box, with
none of the "Sun-ness" the 386i offers, then yes, a used boxhouse '386
would be a better deal.  But they probably don't want to buy all that
other stuff.

>If you are getting a Sun,
>you might as well get a nice 68000 or SPARC based box.

So, why did you... never mind.

The bottom line here is yes, with a little effort you can put together
a '386 system that has most of the same bits as a Sun, and it'll come
out a little cheaper.  Even in your comparision, which by your
admission chose a slightly more expensive Sun with no effort to
mitigate the price, against a system that I would imagine took a bit of
shopping around to assemble (by either you or the integrator who is
packaging it), the difference is not tremendous.  And...

Not knowing the details of the UNIX that is packaged with it, I don't
know if these are included, but I didn't see mention of NFS/ONC
support, DOS Windows, a window-based source-level debugger, and a few
other things that are bundled with the Sun; adding these to your list
would bring the two prices yet closer.  You can also get X for free for
the Sun, *or* you can choose to use SunView, which although it isn't X,
is a rather nice windowing system that a lot of people prefer to use.
The choice is there.  In future releases of the operating system, X11,
NeWS, and a SunView-compatible interface will be provided as an
integrated package.  This is of significant value, at least to me.

You'd also still be missing (uh oh, here it comes...) Sun.  We may not
be perfect, but we're here...rather than buying off-the-shelf pieces,
you're buying a system that was designed from the bottom up to work as a
unit.  When you buy off-the-shelf application software for a Sun, you
know (ideally -- see below) you won't have to worry if it will work with
*this* display, *that* mouse, or *the other* memory board.

Yes, there are still going to be problems with a product line as
diverse as Sun, but these are problems that *our* staff has to work to
solve, rather than yours.  I'm not bringing this up to say how great
Sun is, or to set people up to ask "then why doesn't Frobozz Version
2.1 work on a GX board yet?", but to point out that there is a
significant piece of added value that comes with every Sun that you may
not think about when you're comparing systems.  Remember when I said
"off-the-shelf software" up there?  How much "plug 'n' play" software
is there for a generic '386 UNIX box?  Sun's Catalyst program offers
hundreds, if not thousands, of applications by now, not to mention the
large amount of Sun-specific freeware available off the net.  We also
provide support for third-party developers to guarantee that new
software continues to appear in the future.

The intent of your entries, although muted a bit as you've gone along,
seems to have started as a complaint that Sun is ripping people off by
charging "so much more" for systems, as compared to what Joe's Garage
Boxhouse and Camera Shop charges.  I don't believe that's true (else I
wouldn't have come to work for Sun).  The truth is closer to:

    If you want a generic box, and are willing to cope with the rough
    edges of a pieces-parts system and the lack of off-the-shelf
    software or company support, it's the right move for you.

    If you'd prefer to spend a little more money, and buy an integrated
    system with a lot more performance, a lot more expandability, and an
    upgrade path other than "sell it and buy another," take a look at
    Sun.

I don't expect this will sway you too much, as your intent seems to be
to prove that yes, a comparable machine can be bought for a lower
price, but I think if you take a look, you'll see the price
differential is not that great, and may in fact be non-existent,
especially if you had chosen a Sparc 1 as a comparison machine rather
than the 386i.  I also think you've already seen that the difference is
certainly nowhere near what you had originally thought it would be,
even ignoring the points I've raised above.  (You've also seen that our
price list isn't really secret, that there is a *lot* of third party
hardware available, and that Suns do have a resale market and an
upgrade path.  I'll also mention that we *do* offer a highres
[1600x1280] monochrome screen, and that from one of our third party
vendors you can even get a four megapixel 28" diagonal color screen
that's fully compatible with our standard graphics libraries -- that
is, all correctly written applications will work on it with no
modification.)

Larry Wake
The Proverbial Biased Onlooker
Speaking about, but not for, Sun.